Dec 02 2024 56 mins
Spiritual Abuse, Christianity and the Election with Guest Host
w/Danielle S. Castillejo and Jenny McGrath
Are you confused about what is going on in the US? Do you feel triggered about past spiritual abuse when you see certain elected officials and faith leaders using harmful rhetoric? Are you wanting understanding and tools to navigate this present moment? You are not alone!
Danielle Castillejo and I have been researching the various tributaries of white supremacy via Christian nationalism and spiritual abuse for years now. We are devastated to see what is playing out post Trump’s election, but we are not surprised.
In early 2025 Danielle and I will be beginning groups for individuals who are wanting to process, grieve, and learn more about spiritual abuse and it’s various intersections with race. For now we are offering an introductory workshop to help individuals feel empowered to know what is going on. This workshop is hybrid- you can join online or in person in Poulsbo, Washington.
We will not be giving all of the answers, but we will be giving a framework of “purity culture” and how that has fostered violence based on race, gender, ethnicity, and sexuality since the inception of the US. What is going on right now is not new, but many people are awakening to it for the first time.
Stay awake. Come learn with us how we can resist, together. Note: This workshop will be recorded and made available for future purchase.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Welcome to the ARise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and the church. And tune in and listen to this conversation today. Hey, thanks for joining me today. We've been talking about getting together, I think, in this format on a podcast since before the election, but obviously the election happened. It was a hectic season. I know for me, and I know for you, I want to hear about how that has been as well. But even just as we were kind of saying hello, we're leading in, I could tell like, oh man, shit, there's so many emotions that possibly come up. So we talked about talking about spiritual abuse, the election, and the role of Christianity in that. And for me, it's been so confusing. I grew up a really strict evangelical church. When Fox News appeared on the scene, my dad was watching Fox News and I was watching Fox News, and I've been trying to trace back, did I ever have any dissonance with this?
(01:22):
And I remember some of the first things when I was a kid, like reading a Time magazine about the election and wondering to myself, why do Christians, the Christians I was with, why do they support Republicans? Why are they against social programs? And then when the Iraq war was going on, it felt very clear to me that SDA Hus saying that they were lying about what was happening in the Middle East. But I didn't understand how all of the Republicans that were kind of pushing this narrative about Iraq, why didn't anybody even ask just simple history majors because
Speaker 2 (02:02):
It's
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Obvious. So those are kind of some of the origins. I remember kind of questioning my roots and questioning the narrative of say, Fox News. And now I know there's, there's Charlie Kirk, there's all these other podcast out there kind of rebranding Fox News talking points. But I mean, where that intersected with faith for me is just like, well, how do I even talk about a character like Jesus with someone from that old place when I don't really know if we're talking about the same person anymore? In fact, it's fairly clear to me that it's not the same guy. And who's that guy in the Bible? It's been very confusing for me, but I'm just curious, how do you even open up to think about those questions and kind of the topics?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, I mean, I resonate with the confusion and definitely feel that too. And I think it's one of those things where when I try to pull it apart and get some footing on where I'm at and what I think about it, it is hard to know where to start. Even your words about, okay, Fox News came out, my dad's watching this. I'm watching this. I'm a little confused, but also not quite sure what to make of it or how to even approach the dissonance that I'm experiencing. It goes back so far and so in the air water that it feels hard to disentangle. But I mean, I'm with you and feel so much of that same confusion. And I think even being in a red state, very red state, very conservative, very evangelical area, it's almost as if the Jesus and the political views are not for many.
(04:09):
And I am sure this is not limited to this area, but one of the things I experienced is it's not even, you can't even question, you can't even ask the question, the question of, wait, what's actually happening here? What is someone who actually has a degree in history in Middle Eastern politics? You can't even ask those questions because those questions are a sign that you're doubting or that you've moved to the other side. And so there's such a blindness, and if you go away from us, you're wrong. So much fear. And to pull Jesus apart from that, it very much does feel like a different, we're talking about a different Jesus, which is super disorienting, right? Because we might use the same verses or verses from the same Bible or we celebrate the same holidays, or it feels very disorienting and very confusing.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yeah. I think this idea that Jesus was about love or is something of love, that he was defiant towards religious Pharisees and the people that were persecuting others in the name of religion, it's very interesting then to see one part of my family feel like they're being persecuted and in response to that persecution, they're asking for a king. Or maybe the thing that came to me was the crowd chanting when Jesus was getting ready to be crucified. And the crowd, they're like, the Romans are like, well, who do you want? And they're like, of course we want Barbi. We want the insurrectionist. We want the murderer, the cheater. That's the person we want. Let's kill Jesus. I'm not equating our political figures to Jesus and Barbi, but the idea that we will take even hearkening back to the Old Testament times that we'll take, we need a king, give us a king that somehow the politics, we need politics to save us that Jesus isn't enough anymore. And I don't know when that kind of gets mixed together, the power almost becomes unbearable to fight against, especially if you're on your own.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yeah. Yes. I was actually thinking about this morning how much I think, and I don't know enough about international politics to speak to anything outside of the us, but it feels like our spirituality, especially within the evangelical church in the US, has gotten. So I, I don't know that I would necessarily call myself an evangelical anymore, but that body, which carries a lot of weight, a lot of numbers, a lot of passion in our country, the spirituality has been so fused with politics that it does feel like we need a certain political movement to save us. And I think that could be said on the other side too, in some ways, and I guess in my own, as I've tried to parse out where am I at, where is my spirituality, politics are important, and I feel that we need to vote in line with how we feel, where we find ourselves in terms of our spirituality. And yet Jesus is the rescuer, not a certain political party. And what does that mean? I don't even know how to exist in the midst of where we're at today with that being true, and then it feels so hard to pull apart.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yeah, I mean, for me, I know it hearkens back to so many other places in my life, I've felt powerless against a huge system, or I think specifically in churches where the goal is to has often, well, my experience or the churches that I've been in, the goal has been to preserve the power of a particular pastor or a particular set of pastors and to shield them from any consequences of any ways they might act in the community or individually one-on-one for instance with women. And then I've had the feeling in these circumstances where I just have to take it. I have to take it. I have to move on. I have to accept that God works in this way, that all things work together for good. And that's the same feeling I have right now post-election, that feeling like, okay, this is what's meant to be. This is what God has ordained. You should just take it. And I'm having that similar feeling,
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Which is not right. That's not, of course, I mean, I'm resonating with what you're saying and feel that deeply, and that is a deep part of my story as well. And of course our bodies go to that. Our bodies are going to go to that story of, okay, this is how we function in the midst of this powerlessness of being within this system or up against this thing that we don't have any, what's a response to it? It feels insurmountable. So yeah, there's so much in me that's like, okay, God's still in control, but even though that feels very familiar in my body, I think as I've done work, and it also doesn't like no, no, something in me is saying, no, no, no, that's not, can't just kind of in a Christian coded scripture, coded way, settle and be okay with what is happening, even though I don't know what to do in a lot of ways, in the midst of that tension, I'm not settled, and I'm not that old pad answer, padded answer of, yeah, God's in control. Everything is going to be okay. Everything works for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose.
(11:13):
It's not settling me,
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Right? Because it's not the same scripture if you're white as if you're black or brown or that's true, that scripture means very different things. If you're from white majority power and you say that scripture, you might have the finances and whatnot to deal with coming or the access to education, for instance. But if you're brown, you actually have to give up access to resources that can help your family, like literal, physical, pragmatic resources and be asked to be okay with that for that verse. That's a very different theology than for two sets of people.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And it's why as I'm sitting with my clients and the work I do as a therapist, often it is the black and brown clients who are not, they haven't been able to digest this and just move on. It still, it's right here. This is the reality that we're in the middle of, and that is coming, and it is so much easier as a white person to just call on that verse, call on that scriptural ideal because we're not being cost things that those with less privilege are. And
Speaker 1 (12:44):
At the same time, what does it ask you? I can think of some examples for me, but for you in your location, what does this movement ask you to normalize or to make? Okay. Can you name specific things or general things that you can think
Speaker 2 (13:03):
The movement of the election outcome and what's coming? What's happening?
Speaker 3 (13:08):
Yeah,
Speaker 2 (13:15):
That's a great question. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is just kind of going back to this concept that it's really hard to put words to, let me think for a second. So I think going back to answer this is exposing, right? Because it forces me to go back to the comfortable way that I used to view the world. I do think that that is having grown up in a hyper conservative evangelical world that's very red. There were certain ways that I had to tamp down any dissonance that I felt and being super faith oriented that often included a faith perspective. And so, yeah, I think some of the concepts or the ideas that I don't adhere to anymore, and that I was, Danielle, this is so hard to put words to this idea that there's I privilege and suffering. That sounds so gross, but I think there's so many mental gymnastics, even if I'm trying to articulate it, it's really hard because I might look at somebody less privileged than me in those days and think, well, they've got to work harder, but that's part of what they're being gifted. But at the same time, I would say that and hold that while being, not viewing myself that same way because I didn't, wasn't experiencing that lack of privilege that would've required me to work harder, to move forward, to be empowered, to change my outcome. So I don't know that I'm putting good words to what I'm feeling and thinking, but
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I think I'm even thinking of, of how it's asked me to normalize that women don't need consent even for sex. It's not only that this was normalized through the president, but it was normalized through, it's been further reinforced through his cabinet picks. And this idea that it almost feels like to me, and I don't know if this is what it's intended to do, but the impact it's having on me is like, look at all the perpetrators I can nominate. And there's no consequence for that. This is okay, people are still shouting, this is God's will. This is God's will.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah. I mean, as you're naming that, I can see your activation and I feel it too, right? It's going back to that and incredible powerlessness.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
And then the idea that somehow believing in Jesus is you can believe in Jesus and someone who commits rape or I sexual assault or abuse or human trafficking, that is a get out of jail free card. They can still be the leader. They can still be in charge, which from my experience is the truth in churches.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
It brings up the question in me, what are we doing? What is happening internally for us to make those jumps? And when I say us, I mean the people that would, and I years ago would've found myself in that camp, what was happening internally that could be so blatantly shown, and yet I'm going to put all my eggs in that basket regardless, because somehow that still can align with a mission of love and care and welcome and hope. I find the psychological mechanism there, which is rooted in a lot of what we know, white supremacy, patriarch, we know some of that, but just that the dissonance that has to be either just cut off from consciousness or somehow jumped over it is really interesting to me.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Can you speak to that from a psychological standpoint, maybe in general terms, when you're in an abusive situation, what is that process like? Because what we're kind of describing, right?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah. It's so true. Yeah. Well, I mean, if in a harmful relationship and I'm under threat, and that threat can look a lot of different ways. It could be a sense of physical harm, emotional harm, sexual harm, spiritual harm, whatever that threat level is, it's going to activate nervous system responses in me that are good and are there to try to keep me safe. But that might include the typical fight flight, or it could include freeze or fawn, which all again, are good responses that our brain goes to try to keep us safe, but it requires certain parts of our brain to activate and other parts of our brain to not have quite so much energy put toward them. So my ability to think clearly and logically about what's happening is going to be much lower if I'm in a harmful situation, especially if this is repeated and we're talking about a relationship, this relationship not only includes harm, but also includes something good, which most harmful abusive relationships do. So yeah, psychologically, we're just not functioning on all levels if there's a threat of harm.
(21:12):
So I guess to your point, some of, and maybe not much of what is happening and people who I think truly, I don't know, I want to say that there are people who truly value the teachings of Jesus and want their life to be about him, and yet our things aren't functioning the way they should, not thinking clearly about what's happening. And they're such a dissociated kind of numbness too, which I think is a response that comes when we're being threatened. But I also think that then there is a commitment to it, a commitment to look away, a commitment to, in our privilege, just turn away from what we might in moments of safety, have questions about or see issues with. We can just, oh, I'll just look the other way. So I don't know if that gets at what you were asking, but feels multifaceted. It feels like there's kind of the response part, but then there's also a decision made.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
I think about that when we're in a position where we don't have power to make the choice we need to get out of it. Say we're a child and we're with an adult or in a job and maybe we need the job for money and we have an abusive employer, or maybe we're in a church system and we are under a threat of losing community or maybe access to work or resources. That pattern, I think of where you have to attach, maintain contact with the person that can hurt you to access some of those good things we're talking about. And at the same time, you have to detach in one of the ways you're talking about. You go into that learned trauma response from the harm that's also coming at you. So you almost have to split that off from the good things like the good and the bad things get split. If that happens over a long period of time, you become accustomed to doing that with maybe certain types of harm, for instance. And so I think about it, even in our bodies, some people drink scalding hot water or scalding hot cotton. Not saying it's wrong, but over time, your taste buds get numbed to that. You can numb out those initial burn sensations.
(24:01):
And so I think of that when I think of spiritual abuse or when our politics gets mixed up with normalizing, misogynistic and sexually abusive behaviors when we're elevating people that engage in these kinds of harms and saying, well, that's going to be okay for them, actually, let's give them more power. That's way if those are systems you're coming out of where abuse has been normalized or you've been told like, Hey, just follow, don't pay attention to your senses or your gut or your body, then by the time it gets here, you're going to be asking a lot less questions. You're not going to have the warning signals maybe going off. Yeah,
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. And even going back to when you were naming what's Asked, what you're being asked to normalize that women don't get to have consent for sex or they can be mistreated and sexually harmed, and it doesn't really matter, even as you were naming that, I could feel in me that learned trauma response is still there in some ways of when I see these reports of cabinet members and all the stuff that's coming out that people are saying, there's still something in me that's just like, oh, yeah, of course. No big deal. That doesn't stick. And that is not where I end, but there is an initial response in me that is not surprised, that even thinks Well, of course. And it's not a position of That's okay. Yeah, it's really interesting. It's hard to put words to, but it is not as alarming as it should be at times.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
I think it's good to talk it out, even though it finds both of us without words, because how often are we able to have a conversation like this where we actually be wordless and someone can just talk with us?
Speaker 3 (26:16):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Majority of our lives, we have to spend working or taking care of others or surviving making food. I think that's probably why I wanted to just have a conversation like this, because it's not like it's just going to free flow. We're talking about statistics in a sport. It's not the same thing.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah, it's very true. And every piece is so interwoven, I think, for me, with my own story and things on a personal level, and then moving out the systemic levels of family and church and then bigger systems. So it does feel hard to put words to, but it is really, I think it is very worthwhile to stumble around and try to find words.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah, I mean, you and me we're not experts.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
No, nope.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
I was so glad you said personal story because there were things I thought like, oh, this is resolved. I am cool with this. And then it was the day after the election, and I found myself sitting in silence for just a long periods of time about anything to say. I didn't really have a clear thought, like
Speaker 2 (27:41):
A hundred percent. I mean, I think even, I haven't had a ton of conversations about it, honestly. I've kind of sat with folks as they've processed, but I have not taken a lot of space to process. And I think for at least a good week, I didn't have, there was really no way to put words to what my inner experience was. There was a lot of tears and a lot of silence and a lot of dread. But just this feeling of, if I even try to put words, I don't have words for this right now. And yeah,
Speaker 1 (28:29):
I think that's So partly is the, so insidiousness of spirituality that relies on power to be enforced is that it can tap into all those other tender places in us.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah. I mean, yes, it just feels like such a bind and so hard to locate. I think for me, I've got my own spiritual stuff like shifting and have been processing stories of spiritual harm, and I'm still in the midst of that. So that was already there, and then you add this layer on top of that, and it just feels really hard to even have the comforting personal spirituality to anchor to in the midst of all this powerlessness and not comforting in a numbed out split off way of everything's going to be fine, but I can anchor to a creator. I can anchor to a savior. I can anchor to something bigger than me that feels even hard to access.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I was thinking about that. I was on Instagram and my family follows some hyper conservative podcasters. So I was watching, I look at that just to get an idea, what are other people thinking? And they were glory to God and Jesus answer by prayer. And I was wondering back in Nazi Germany who voted for Hitler and who had those same prayers and who had those same answers or colonists that came to the United States and raped and murdered and pillaged, and they felt like, oh, wow. God did this for me. I just felt like, wow. We literally think nothing alike. Yeah,
Speaker 2 (30:55):
And it's hard when you've got folks like that in your family. What commonality are we even standing on anymore? And maybe there's not any,
Speaker 1 (31:12):
I like to think that the commonality, I tell myself the commonality is that we both believe we're human and the humanity is shared between us, but I'm always not so sure about that if I believe we're both human. Do you actually believe that? I'm unsure,
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Right? Well, yeah, because I think that belief in our humanity has to require that, that we believe in another's humanity, right? That the dignity of another, and that feels far away. I am not sure how much access people, yeah, it's hard. I don't know the right words to use there, but I don't know how common that is right now.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
What do you do to find grounding for yourself or to comfort maybe in general or if you have any specifics?
Speaker 2 (32:22):
That's a good question. I think it's hard right now. I think I'm noticing how I am noticing the lack of grounding. I'm noticing how hard it is to be still, how hard it is to just relax, how hard it is to sit in silence, how hard it is not to grab my phone or eat or those are the things right now, that quick comfort, dopamine boost that I'm turning to. I think it is really, I don't think right now I've figured it out. I mean, I try to move my body every day. I think that is not stillness, but that is a grounded moment for me. And I think when I noticed, honestly in these days, for me, when the emotion has space to come up, letting it come up and not having all the words for it, but being in touch with my tears and in touch with the feeling of powerlessness feels grounded.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
So the feeling of powerlessness, being in touch with that feels grounding to you?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Can you say any more about that?
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Well, it feels real, right? It feels real. It feels real. It feels like in that moment, I'm not trying to numb it. I'm not trying to escape it. I'm not trying. I'm in a complex of like, oh, I can fix this somehow. And I think knowing that, even in those moments, I mean, those are very solitary moments for me. There's not a communal, that's not communal experience for me. But I think in those moments, there is something in me that knows I'm not the only one that's feeling that, and that feels grounding. I think what I've encouraged my clients to do who are reckoning with the fear terror, really disappointed feelings, all that they're coming out of the election with, I've encouraged them. Do you have folks who feel the same that you can just be with in this moment? Can we have community in the powerlessness? Not to stay there, but I do think our humanity has, for those of us who believe in the dignity, us and others around us as humans, we've taken a toll. Our bodies have taken a toll through this, and we need to know that in the midst of this powerlessness, we're not the only ones feeling it, that it feels like a moment of we've got to have other people around us to keep moving and respond, however that looks.
(35:41):
How about you?
Speaker 1 (35:46):
I think for me, every morning, just very, it might seem little, but every morning I've been going to the waterfront out here and taking pictures of the same scene, just, I can't even call it a sunrise because pre 7:00 AM it's like dark, dark, dark here in the winter, like dark, dark, dark at 4:00 PM I know it sounds silly, but I've been doing it. It just feels good. Just like, what does that look like? What does it like for me? What do I notice? It always seems to shift a tiny bit, and I like that. Otherwise, I'll text a friend or say, my day is shit, or This really good thing happened. I don't need anybody to make anything better for me because they really can't. But I just want someone to know so I'm not alone.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah. Good. I like the thought of anchoring to nature, and there's something, I think for me, in the tender places of my own spirituality, being in nature, I can feel the closest to that, the closest to God, the closest to something of hope, something of, and I hope that's real, or at least I hope that it's real. I hope that it's real. You know what I mean? I hope that's not cheap. I like that.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
I like how you don't have to prove it, man. I hope that's it.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
It feels like the opposite of that's been what's happening to us. Someone's trying to prove it to us.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yeah. How have you handled for you, what have you noticed in terms of taking in news updates? Do you keep yourself pretty open and pretty constantly accessing those things, or have you noticed the need to pause? How's that played out for you?
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Yeah. Over the weekend, I took a break. It just kind of thought about fun and good things, and I saw a lot of news stories flash across that I was interested in, but I was like, man, I'm not going to read that. That's not going to feel good. But prior to the election, I felt like I remember having this feeling in the last presidency of Trump that every day something bad happened or that every day something happened that I didn't know what to expect. And I think once he's in office, just let the bad things happen so I can know what it is. But right now, I don't know. And there's a lot of talking, but we don't know what's going to happen. So I'm trying to stay a little bit less engaged now because I am trying to stay informed on the things I need to stay informed on, but less engaged in that way. What about you?
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yeah. It is funny, as you mentioned that his last presidency, what you felt, I remember feeling a palpable sense of relief when Biden came into office because it was like, I think I felt the same thing you felt without putting those words around it. It was just this constant, every day there was something else. Every day there was some shock or ugh. So whether that was realistic or not, I felt relief when he wasn't in office anymore, which took some time. But yeah, I feel that tension too of, well, I want to be informed, but also there is a lot of unknown. There is a lot of kind of talk that's not able to come into fruition yet, and it feels like, for me, it drives my anxiety, it drives my dread. So holding that tension of being informed, but not staying so connected to all the possibilities that I'm unwell and not able to do my job or love my kids or those things. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Yeah. Right.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Yeah. I mean, there's so much weight. I think as we're just in our conversation, there's so much weight in my body, so much weight in my stomach, so much tightness in my throat. It's such a, there's so much dread,
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Right?
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah. And I think that's, that's the thing that's different that I think it's good for us to keep naming. This isn't like PTSD where the trauma happened and it's in the past. This is an ongoing thing that hasn't stopped yet. So I think at the same time, it's ongoing. We'll often have these traumatic symptoms that we might call PTSD, but for us to expect ourselves or you or I expect someone else to just be over it, I don't think that's necessarily fair.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Yeah. And I think in the midst of that, trying to be kind with ourselves and gentle, acknowledging what we are in the midst of and tending to our bodies and giving ourselves a pass and moments when we need to eat a good meal and just talk about whatever it is with a friend or with our families holding onto our humanity and our dignity in that way too. Those really important.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Well, are there any final thoughts you want to leave folks with? I mean, I know we can't wrap this up. I know we'll likely have more conversations, but this is kind of our opening. Any final thoughts?
Speaker 2 (42:23):
I mean, I think just that encouragement, speaking to myself too, of being kind, being kind to ourselves, but also to other people. Not being okay with injustice, but remembering the humanity and even, I don't know, it feels hard to do, but remembering somebody's humanity, even if they're not honoring mine, the kind of person I want to be. That's hard. But I do think that that feels really important.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
That feels good. I think for me, I try to, like I said, find some grounding in myself and then find some folks that I can just be myself with, even just one person for the day that I can express one real emotion with one real thought, even if it's joy or happiness, but someone I know that will celebrate that with me. Or if I'm sad, someone I know I can actually cry with or just tell it, like say I'm sad today. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
Well, thank you for joining me. So good to be here on Monday, December 9th, just a week from now, Jenny McGrath of Indwell Counseling, and I link is in the notes, are going to be doing a little workshop, like one-off thing on Christian nationalism and spiritual abuse. If you're confused about what's going on in the us you feel triggered about past spiritual abuse, when you see certain elected officials and faith officials using harmful rhetoric, or are you wanting to understanding and tools to navigate this present moment, you're not alone. As you heard in our conversation. It can be very difficult. And so we just decided, hey, we'd offer this little workshop, talk a little bit about it. And then in early 2025, Jenny and I are going to be getting some groups for individuals who want to process and grieve and learn more about spiritual abuse and its various intersections with race. This is not new work for Jenny and I. We've been having this conversation for many years now, and we're also not experts. We're not here to solve all the problems or be the only resource for you, but you're invited to join. If cost is a problem, please reach out. We'll see what we can do.
Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.