Conversing with Mark Labberton

“Is Trump interested in being Constitutionally faithful?” (Mark Labberton, from this episode)

“What we're watching here is the operation of the will of an individual on the system, and the system is really meant to answer to the negotiated will of a plural body.” (Yuval Levin, from this episode)

“ I think character is destiny, especially in the American presidency, because the presidency really is one person.” (Yuval Levin, from this episode)

The transition of power from one presidential administration to another always has the potential for turbulence—often a surreal, perplexing, or disorienting process. But is there anything peculiar or problematic about the opening days of Donald Trump’s second term in office? Is there anything unconstitutional?

In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes back Yuval Levin for a conversation about the political and social impact of Donald Trump’s first month in office in light of Constitutional law and the Separation of Powers.

Yuval Levin is the director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute, where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Currie Chair in Public Policy. His latest book is American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again. He’s founder of National Affairs, senior editor at The New Atlantis, a contributing editor of National Review, and contributing opinion writer at the New York Times.

Together they discuss:

• The authority of the Constitution over the presidency
• The importance of character in the office of the president
• The separation of powers and the threat of presidential overreach
• What American citizens should be genuinely worried about right now
• The importance of cross-partisan policymaking and a variety of political voices
• Why we should worry, but not panic

About Yuval Levin

Yuval Levin is the director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Curry Chair in Public Policy. The founder and editor of National Affairs, he is also a senior editor at The New Atlantis, a contributing editor at National Review, and a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times.

At AEI, Levin and scholars in the Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies research division study the foundations of self-government and the future of law, regulation, and constitutionalism. They also explore the state of American social, political, and civic life, focusing on the preconditions necessary for family, community, and country to flourish.

Levin served as a member of the White House domestic policy staff under President George W. Bush. He was also executive director of the President’s Council on Bioethics and a congressional staffer at the member, committee, and leadership levels.

In addition to being interviewed frequently on radio and television, Levin has published essays and articles in numerous publications, including Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, The Atlantic, and Commentary. He is the author of several books on political theory and public policy, most recently American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation – and Could Again (Basic Books, 2024).

He holds an MA and PhD from the Committee on Social Thought at the University of Chicago.

Show Notes

• A time of “presidential gigantism”
• “Is Trump interested in being Constitutionally faithful?”
• Pluralism and vigorous debate
• Swamping a weak, divided Congress
• Separation of Powers
• Legislature vs Executive Branch
• “ Nobody really ever expected the president to be representative. Presidents are elected to be accountable. Congress is elected to be representative.”
• “What we're watching here is the operation of the will of an individual on the system, and the system is really meant to answer to the negotiated will of a plural body.”
• Performative nature of political roles
• “Random grab-bag of power plays.”
• Fear of a “lawless president”
• “The beginning of  a new administration is unavoidably a little surreal.”
• “ It's important not to over-read the strength that's evident at the outset here because we don't really know how much of this will play out.”
• Elon Musk as Pseudo-President
• “ The president does command the executive branch. On the other hand, the president does not command the federal government.”
• “ When the question is, does the president have to follow the law, the answer to that is going to be yes.”
• Is the Supreme Court going to keep Trump in check?
• Overturning Chevron deference
• “Character is destiny.”
• “ I think character is destiny, especially in the American presidency, because the presidency really is one person.”
• “ The fact that character's destiny in the presidency is not good news for Donald Trump and is not good news for the country while he is president because the biggest problem with Trump is his character, is the lack of a sense of personal responsibility and self restraint, the lack of a respect for the need for stability and coherence in leadership, And to have an administration that has that character is going to challenge our system and I think just create problems for the country in some important ways.”
• ”In moments of decision and crisis, it's the president's character that determines how things go.”
• “ My biggest worry about Trump is not one policy or another. There's some I like and some I don't. But it's that ultimately the presidency is one person, and this one person is just not a good fit for that office.”
• Presidential overreach
• Loyalty tests and punishment
• “ What the president really does is make hard decisions.”
• Having room for opposition
• “Administration is impossible when people on the ground are afraid to tell you what's going on.”
• Alarm Bells
• First: “The possibility of the administration just willfully ignoring a court order.”
• Second: “Ignoring signals of trouble, ignoring dissent, ignoring opposing voices, a sense that they're ignoring reality and pretending things are happening that aren't. That's very dangerous in the presidency.”
• Third: “It's also worth worrying about the tendency for vengeance and for personal vendettas for using the power of prosecution and of law enforcement for political purposes, even for personal purposes.”
• Character and mindset
• Congress has 535 people. The presidency comes down to one person.
• Dangers on the horizon
• Checks and balances
• Laying the groundwork for a third Trump term?
• “On the whole  our institutions have proven fairly strong.”
• “It is better to worry than to panic. Worry lets you make distinctions …”
• Yuval Levin’s American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again
• What is the voice of citizenship right now?
• Appropriations
• “Governors are some of the sanest people in our politics in this moment.”
• “I don't think that the lesson of Trump's first term should be that people who oppose him should just sit it out and wait. I think the lesson on the contrary is that the Trump administration does respond to pressure.”
• “Policy change should happen through cross partisan negotiation in Congress.”
• “President Trump has said, for example, that in his first month in office, he wants to have met every house Republican.”
• A variety of voices
• “In a way, the mindset of what's the thing we would do if we could magically do anything is the problem, not the solution. And it's how Donald Trump is thinking, what would I do if I were the emperor? I think the most important thing in this moment is for him to realize that he is not the emperor, and that our system never lets us do that thing we would want to do. That's the beauty of the system.”
• “The other great political question. What can I get done that I also want to achieve?”
• “God Bless America.”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.