Ofsted Talks

In this episode, Mark Leech (Director, Strategy and Engagement) talks to Paul Joyce (Deputy Director, Further Education and Skills), Helen Flint (Specialist Policy Adviser, Quality and Training) and Commander Kate Scott of the Royal Navy about Ofsted's recent Welfare and duty of care in the Armed Forces initial training report.

Transcript

Mark Leech

Hello, welcome to another edition of Ofsted Talks. And today we're talking about an interesting area of work. And one I thing a lot of people are quite surprised at we are talking about inspecting training facilities in the armed forces. This is what we do on behalf of the Ministry of Defence. And every year we publish a report summarising this work, which is called the effectiveness of care and welfare arrangements for recruits. trainees and Officer cadets. We've just published this year's report, and I'm delighted to be talking about it with some great guests. So I'll start with my Ofsted colleagues, and we're joined by Paul Joyce, who is the director, looking after all of our further education work. We're joined by Helen Flint, as well as specialist advisor in the further education team and our Armed Forces lead. And Helen, I think you also have a bit of a background in the Armed Forces yourself before you joined us here at Ofsted.

Helen Flint

Yeah, that's correct, Mark. I did spend nearly 20 years as a training education specialist in the Royal Navy. I have to point out that was actually over 10 years ago and I've done many things since joining since leaving the Royal Navy including being an HMI since 2014.

Mark Leech

I'm also really pleased to say that we're joined today by Commander Kate Scott of The Royal Navy and Kate is also the Ministry of Defence link for us here at Ofsted. Kate did you want to talk a little bit about your background and how you ended up in this role?

Commander Scott

Yes, yeah. As you say, I'm Kate Scott and I have been in the Navy just over 20 years and I am what is known within the Navy as a Training Management Specialist. I have done several roles across many of the training domains. Looking particularly at the introduction of new equipment and the training associated with this and this is my first foray into Ofsted and carry on welfare and duty of care from an MOJ perspective.

Mark Leech

Thank you. So Paul and Helen. As I said this is work that a lot of people will be a bit surprised to know that Ofsted does it sits within our further education team. How did it come about? How did we get to a position where we were asked by the Ministry of Defence to inspect training in the forces.

Paul Joyce

Thanks Mark. You're right. It's a relatively small piece of the further education skills remit. But an incredibly important part, Helen, I think you know the background to this really, really well. Would you like to just explain why we're doing this.

Helen Flint

Thank you, Paul. So this work all stems back from some deaths in the army in the late 1990s and the early 2000s at a place called Deep Cut barracks in Surrey. And there were a number of young people in that particular establishment who, over that time period took their own lives. And that was followed by a number of inquiries and reports. The outcome of one of those was that the then adult learning Inspectorate was asked by the Ministry of Defence to be an impartial and independent Inspectorate. Looking at what went on in basic training amongst all of the armed forces and effectively be exposed to civilian look at what's going on inside those establishments primarily through a care and welfare lens. So this work stems right back to that time, the adult learning Inspectorate was then if you'd like subsumed into Ofsted, and Ofsted has now completed 15 different cycles of inspection into basic training, which is if you'd like the Phase One element, which is where you civilians, join the armed forces and go through basic training in the Army, the Navy and the Royal Air Force. And then on to their trade training, which teaches them to be all the different job roles that you can possibly get in the armed forces. So teach them for example, to be engineers or chefs, or infantry folk. All of that is what happens in their initial trade training or their phase two. Our remit as Ofsted, as commissioned by the Ministry of Defence, is to go and look at how well those different training establishments are looking after the care and welfare of those young people. And that includes looking at it through the lens of training because at the end of the day, that's what they are doing in those establishments. They are there to train, but they also live there. They've got a full experience that goes on, and it's our responsibility to go and see how well the Ministry of Defence is looking after them through those training. Those training phases.

Mark Leech

Thank you so much. Okay, so I suppose what's the view from the other side of the fence as as the MOD representative, clearly going all the way back to the deep kind of really serious and sensitive area. A big focus now for the armed forces.

Commander Scott

Yeah, absolutely. We absolutely as the emoji are delighted that Ofsted come and see our, our initial training. We've got an enormously good relationship with Ofsted. And welcoming new into our establishments to have a independent third party, assess how well how well we deliver the duty, duty of care aspects of our obligations to those people that join the armed forces. is absolutely key. And the inspectors that comes to the establishments have a wealth of knowledge. They are able to look at a number of establishments in each inspection cycle, and their ability to then triangulate that triangulate their data and allow us to see the trends and the consistency of which we are delivering the duty of care where we can develop our policies and procedures and where best practices is being delivered allows us really to, to get after those areas where we can do better for our people, and where we can bring a mindset of continuous improvement through the inspections that you deliver. So absolutely. We welcome them. They're very good for us and yeah, may they continue.

Mark Leech

Thank you. And Paul, so you said this is quite a quite a small team. How many people do we have and how many places do we inspect? I mean, obviously on the list, you've got some pretty famous names, Sandhurst. Where else are we going?

Paul Joyce

Well Mark as you quite rightly say, and as Kate has just said, it's influential work. Because what our inspections find and the recommendations we make, do make a real difference to the establishments that we inspect. It's a slightly different framework. So whilst as Helen has already said, it is training that we are looking at, but it's specifically the welfare and duty of care aspect, in addition to that training, that's important, and we do around 20 inspections, a year 20 inspections. Each cycle, and we are alone with Kate and MOD colleagues. Helen decides where to visit, what units to visit. And that's done on a sort of a risk and priority basis. And we then go and inspect and as we do in our other remits, we report as we find, but the difference in in this remit particularly the reports already very, very high level by senior and MOD staff. There's an annual report produced signed off by our chief inspector and by the Minister responsible for defence, and importantly, as a result of individual establishment inspections and the annual report, improvements are made and improvements are made not only to training, but also to infrastructure to resources. And to accommodation.

Mark Leech

Just out of interest. Do you inspect reservists as well as regular units?

Helen Flint

Actually this year because we have not been to inspect any reservists other than the university service units. Which aren't strictly reservists because we are doing a piece of work alongside the Ministry of Defence to review the training in each of the armed forces, reservist organisations and look at the best way that we could possibly inspect those. So this year coming we are going to do a piece of work alongside Kate and her team and alongside the single services to look at how training is in the reserve world for certain parts of the organisation. So the nice thing about the work that we do is it doesn't it changes often we do different things we don't we're not fixated on what we look at, the MOD will ask us to look at something different perhaps this year, next year, the year after. And we are agile enough to look at what we do and say that we can try and do things differently. That's a really nice piece. of work that Paul, you talked about that relationship between the Ministry of Defence colleagues and ourselves and we are responsive to something that they might like us to go and look at outside of what we've looked at in the previous year.

Mark Leech

So just looking at the kind of span of places that we go and inspect. We've talked about some of the sort of famous officer training establishments or centres where else do we go?

Helen Flint

Yeah, absolutely. Mark. We went to all three of the very prestigious officer training Establishments this year, so we went up to RAF Cranwell, and also we went to the naval College in Dartmouth, as well as Sandhurst, as you mentioned, but we also have been to the Phase One training establishments at RAF Halton, we've been to some of the army training establishments such as Winchester. And then we've talked about the sort of phase two which is the initial trade training, which is where the recruits will go next to learn about their trades. So we went to places like Portsmouth, Fareham near Portsmouth and we also went up to Cosford, and I mentioned about the fact that these were places that sorry, there were places that we've seen make definite improvements. And those last two are really good examples of establishments that we have inspected that we did not think we're good for reasons various people can read the previous annual report if they want to know why they weren't good the previous time, but when we went back this year, both of those establishments are good examples of places that have gone from requires improvement to good so they're really good news stories.

Mark Leech

Thank you for the process of inspecting the establishments. I'm interested in how that how that differs perhaps from some of the other inspections that we do. So most people obviously think about school inspections where our inspectors will go in and they'll sit at the back of a class and watch some children being taught. They'll talk to leaders in the school, they'll run through curriculums and really look into the level of detail I mean, how hands on do we get in inspections in Ministry of Defence?

Helen Flint

To be honest, Mark the type of activities we do on any sort of inspection are fairly similar. So the activities that inspectors in the MOD team will do will be fairly similar to the sorts of things they would do for example, they were going to visit a college but there's just a slight sort of nuance in the emphasis so they will still go and look at training that's happening it's sometimes in a classroom but often it's out in in the field or a workshop or on an assault course or out on the playground. And we do that because we are interested in the quality of the training and we've got as Kate mentioned, we've got a huge wealth of experience in our in our inspection workforce, who many of whom have been inspecting either post 16 education or been involved in post 16 education and training for many years. So that we find is something to have useful conversations with the mid about but we're also spend a lot of time talking to new recruits and trainees at these establishments and finding out what life there is like from their perspective. And one of the things that we do that possibly colleagues and other inmates wouldn't do is we go and have a look where these where these young people are living because we're really interested in the sorts of accommodation facilities that they are experiencing in their time while they're under training. And we'll go and see where they eat, and we'll go and see where they are able to relax out of their working time because these are all things that we have. Over the years our experience has shown them really important for the well being and care of those young people who, for whom this training is is actually quite robust and quite physical. They're doing stuff they may never have done before. They're living away from home for the very first time. Some of them are particularly some of those who are a bit younger. So we do want to explore all of those things with them and find out how well they are being supported and cared for by the establishment staff both uniformed and non uniform. Because let's not forget there are a lot of civilians working in these organisations as well as military and all of those things will help us sort of get a rounded picture of what life is like for those people going through that training under those circumstances, and yes, we will also spend a lot of time talking to staff and a lot of time talking to the senior leaders or the command team of the are responsible for the training for the care for the welfare of those new recruits and trainees. So those activities are similar, but as I say slightly nuanced, slightly different because we do have an emphasis on how good the infrastructure and the resources are, because of our experience over the last nearly 20 years is what an impact they can have on the well being of people that are going through that training off the top off state.

Mark Leech

Yes, and then the infrastructure is something that I know we've drawn out in the latest report and in previous reports. Should we talk a bit about what we've found over the course of the last year and what people can read about if they do pick up a copy of our report?

Helen Flint

Yeah, sure. Well, first thing to say about our report and about our findings across this year's cycle, which the report talks about, is how good the training is in all of the places we visited. And not a single establishment or University Service Unit.

Mark Leech

If I can just stop you there. Helen, would you mind just letting our listeners know where the University Service Unit is?

Helen Flint

So we went to 11 Different regular training Establishments this year and by regular I mean regular army regular Navy and regular air force. We also went to a number of university service units. And this year we chose the RAF and we went to some of the university air squadrons visited a number of those across the country. And remember that these are not just in England like Ofsted. Other work often tends to be in England, but these are all over the United Kingdom. So we visited a number of those. And these are units that are attached to universities. So you can go to university as a student, and you can apply to be a member of the University service units which are what really what they say on the tin they are service organisations which train students who are effectively become officer cadets in their time there and they train them to do various different activities. There's no requirement to join the military afterwards. That's not what these organisations are about, but because they are paid service people because they are effectively doing what could be constitute as a sort of phase one phase two type training. Then the then the mid asked us to start inspecting those in around 2018.

Mark Leech

That's great. Thank you for that. Going back to what we found this year during the inspections. You were saying that all the training we inspected was good.

Helen Flint

What we found everywhere we went is that the training and the quality of support that all of those young recruits and trainees were experiencing in the places who went to this year was good. Not a single one was not so that's a really good finding. And I'm really delighted for MOD colleagues. That that is the that is the case. There were pockets where we were saying hang on a minute. Some of these young folk going through training. They haven't quite had enough time, for example, to really think about what they've learned before you then teach them something new. So let's have let's have a look at that, please. And that's one of the recommendations in the report. We've also said please can you remember that they also have to have time to to maintain the level of fitness that you've got them to because that's something else that we found within the report. We've asked the RMIT colleagues to seriously think about the level of nutrition that recruits and trainees have and teaching recruits and trainees more about the nutrition that what they need to fuel their body particularly when they're undertaking quite strenuous physical activity and strenuous training. So there's a conversation about that. And that's one of the recommendations. Two of our major recommendations, though, and your listeners may well have actually seen these in the press because some of these were picked up by some of their large newspapers and indeed, I think some of the meet other media outlets were that we did find that if you're a woman or if you are a smaller, recruit or trainee, not everything fits as well as we'd like it to. That's particularly around some of the kits such as body armour or rucksacks. Or also known in the military is Bergens. So there was a recommendation around the making sure that clothing uniform and equipment fits properly. And our major recommendation this year, as it was in the previous year, and indeed the one before that is about improving swiftly the particularly that combination for other infrastructure. And that was a major finding this year because sadly this year we actually went to probably one of the worst places in terms of infrastructure that we've seen in in quite a long time. And that particular institution, we felt so bad that we gave it adequate rating overall. And that's quite rare. Which comes back to my first point, which is most of what we see across the military state across military training is good. And we do report that.

Mark Leech

I think I think that is really important because obviously there was a lot of focus on on some of the some of the infrastructure. Kate, I'm not trying to put you on the spot at all, but do you do recognise some of that? Is that a fair assessment do you think of the current current state of play?

Commander Scott

Yeah, I think Ofsted inspections are always fair. I I shadow a few to understand how Ofsted undertake their inspections. I think that's part of my role. It allows me to talk to the command in the command in command and chains of command within the establishment with a more informed view of how inspections have been undertaken. And it helps me in in my role when I'm answering questions. So absolutely. I think the MOD absolutely recognises that across what is essentially an extremely large training estate, that there are certainly buildings that are require much more investment we have quite a quite a number of graded buildings, which the investment for which is obviously enormous. And there is a mid infrastructure strategy that is is developing how we then look to modernise our training estate to ensure that we absolutely get after these issues to ensure that the defence view on duty of care and care and welfare for our trainees not only covers all of the welfare side, but also all of those sides that Helen mentions including accommodation and infrastructure. So yes, it is recognised and I think the MOD strategy is strong, it will take time, but it's absolutely on the radar. And I think when it comes to equipment, certainly across all of the services, there are absolutely programmes in place to develop the equipment that we have for both males and females. To ensure that when we undertake not only our training, but also throughout our careers, that the equipment we have is the best that it can be. And it allows us to do the jobs that we do to the best of our abilities. So once again, that takes time to develop but it's absolutely there.

Mark Leech

And have you seen over the season over the years that Ofsted has been doing these inspections and someone's gonna have to correct me on the number of years we've been involved in this. Have you seen some steps forward? On the on the back of some of the reports that we put out?

Helen Flint

So absolutely we do and I'm reminded of a little story of when our some of our inspectors were at an RAF establishment that shall remain nameless. And we had we pointed out that it wasn't really great that they didn't have hot water and heating in that particular establishment and the young people going through the training that was phase two training stuff, couldn't have hot showers because the heating system kept failing. And some inspectors went back a little while longer. A little while after that and they were taken to a big hole in the ground by by one of the establishment staff and so they go we're putting in new heating. It's not quite there yet but we're putting in new heating and when we did go back to inspect that fully. The big hole have been filled in I'm very pleased to say but they've actually got their heating system sorted out and there was such thing as heating and hot water and that might sound a bit trivial to people that listening that are thinking wow, these are rough tough to service people and you know they've got to live to learn in in quite harsh conditions and that is true. But when they're out there doing the job properly. Not while they're learning to be sailors and soldiers that's really important that we as a society give people the chance to do things like wash themselves when they've been out crawling through mud or running around and assault course. You know, those are basic, we think basic sort of requirements really in this country and it's right and proper that the mid should fix things when they are broken. And to be fair, wherever we have gone back to reinspect. Somewhere that we have set an aspect isn't good enough without any exceptions. There has been improvement every single establishment where we've said in the in an inspection. This isn't good. This requires improvement. We've gone back and we've seen an improvement without exception.

Mark Leech

That's really good. I think your point is really well made as well. You know that this idea that might exist out there that Oh, well. You know, the whole point of joining the armed forces, you've got to be tough enough to deal with cold showers and all the rest of it but we're talking about young people starting out in a career in the military and it's as you say, it's only right and proper that they that they have a modern lifestyle when they're when they're not out doing their actual day to day training. I mean, I'm interested as well in what we've learned as an organisation from this work because obviously your area of work covers whether education colleges or comes prison education as well. What have we learned from our experience working with the armed forces?

Paul Joyce

A great deal, Mark. I mean, it's great that our inspectors have this as a an additional element to their work stream. So Helen, as has been said before, has a small team of of experienced inspectors that do this work, but they learn an awful lot from the inspections they do in MOD and they're of course able to bring that back into our work and into the training that we do for the other activity. I mean, what's most striking for me here is the relationship that exists between Ofsted and the MOD so between Helen and Kate and colleagues. And the biggest learning point here that we try to replicate throughout the remit is around that communication is around that risk management that risk intelligence and about communication in terms of conducting inspections and making recommendations. Because as we've heard from Helen and Kate, this is work that is influential, it does make a difference. If we find something that needs improvement, and we get that recommendation right. The MOD act on that those improvements. So it's a really good additional sub remit to the work we do in Further Education and Skills

Mark Leech

That's interesting thank you and I suppose just bringing it back to where we started is this sort of sensitive area, the inspection of these facilities, the welfare concerns came out of some difficult times in the history of the armed forces around Deep Cut and elsewhere. We've talked about things that have been learned through inspection on the sort of facilities and improving the infrastructure. Kate, how do you think there's been changes made that have made a material difference in terms of that wider care of recruits?

Commander Scott

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, out of out of Deep Cut, we had a significant report and that had over 30 recommendations. And it is it is from those recommendations we have absolutely based on care and welfare and duty of care for our for our recruits and trainees and, and that stems from the need for us to make sure that not only our trainees are, are well cared for but also our trainers are in the best position to deliver the responsibilities that we give them as trainers within HR establishments. So we have absolutely put in place levels of training for trainers. We've got strategies for additional training, whether that be on radicalization and bullying. We've now got self harm strategies. We've got suicide awareness strategies. And all of this as part of that continuous improvement mindset that we've got for both our trainers and trainees with regards to how can we continue to develop the care and welfare and duty of care aspects of our training that goes so, so hand in hand with also delivering the military side and the capability side that we want to instil in these trainees that come into the armed forces? So absolutely, we we have changed as an organisation post deep cuts, and for the right reasons and we continue to change and develop and that's exactly where Ofsted provide that underpinning data alongside lots of other reports and strategies that we have at the defence level to provide us with that constant check to ensure that we are going in the right direction and that we are sharing the best practice across the establishments so that we are absolutely doing the best for the people that join the armed forces.

Helen Flint

Yeah, I'd endorsed what Kate's just said there, Mark because I think the landscape has changed considerably since those days and Ofsted are really proud partners in that journey. You know, the Ministry of Defence I've done so much work in these areas. And it really is a very, I've been kicking around for a very long time since those days up until now and they've made such significant changes in the way that trainers are trained and as well as the way that trainees are trained and the whole the whole way that young people are looked after I say young because they're all younger than me. I mean that doesn't mean that there's some of them are in their 30s. So there's still a lot younger than me. But the whole the whole way that this system, the training systems within the armed forces are run is markedly different as they were really proud to have worked hand in hand with the Minister of Defence during that whole journey.

Mark Leech

Thank you. It's clearly really, really important work. Thank you so much for talking today. Thank you, Paul. Thank you, Helen. Thank you, Kate. I hope you've enjoyed listening. Do give us a like and follow and we will speak again another topic soon.