Uncertain

We’re talking about how one of the characteristics of a cult is that they often present as a really good thing. A lot of times, they are doing really good things on the surface. If this weren’t the case, people wouldn’t be joining them.

 Additionally, not every cult starts as a cult. Sometimes it starts as on organization with really good intentions to help people. We’ll discuss all of that, in this episode.

https://www.ted.com/talks/sarah_edmondson_how_to_spot_a_cult

Sarah Edmondson is a Canadian actress who has starred in the CBS series Salvation and more than twelve films for the Hallmark Channel and Lifetime. She is also a well-established voice-over artist for popular series such as Transformers: Cybertron and My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. In 2005, when NXIVM, a personal and professional development company, promised to provide the tools and insight Sarah needed to reach her potential, she was intrigued. Over her twelve-year tenure, she went from student to coach and eventually operated her own NXIVM center in Vancouver. Questions kept coming up about the organization’s rules and practices, which came to a head in 2017 when she accepted an invitation from her best friend to join DOS, a “secret sisterhood” within NXIVM.

In 2019, Sarah published Scarred: The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, the Cult that Bound My Life, with Kristine Gasbarre. In this tell-all memoir, she shares her story from the moment she takes her first seminar to her harrowing fight to get out. Her full story as a whistleblower is featured in the CBC podcast Uncover: Escaping NXIVM (downloaded over 25 million times) and The Vow, the critically acclaimed HBO documentary series on NXIVM. Now with the launch of “A Little Bit Culty,” Sarah and her co-host/husband Anthony “Nippy” Ames are keeping the conversation going by discussing the healing process with the help of experts and fellow survivors.

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings:

Katherine: Well, hello, Sarah,

Sarah: how are you? I'm great. How are you

Katherine: doing? Okay. Do you know? Okay. It has been gloomy and St. Louis and today the first sign of sunshine and I like went outside to like be in the sun, but it was 30 degrees. And so I didn't stay there very long, but. It's beautiful today. Beautiful to see the sun.

How are, how's the weather in your area?

Sarah: I'm in Atlanta. We're in our very brief winter and it's, it's, it's just a couple of weeks, I think. And it really fluctuates on a day to day basis and I have no idea what's in store and I'm just getting used to that as a concept. Yeah.

Katherine: I just kind of ups and downs.

Yeah. Yes. I have relatives in the Atlanta area and I hear about the bipolar weather. Of yeah, very [00:02:00] similar to St. Louis fun times. Well, thank you so much for being here and your openness to telling your story here. Really excited to hear from you just about The impact of your experience in NXIVM and then your recovery process.

You also have your podcast, a little bit culty that I highly recommend to everyone. It's just entertaining. It's good stuff and you learn a lot, but then it's also super entertaining. And so I hope folks will listen to that as well, but you get to interact with a lot of cult survivors through that. And so I w I'm very interested to hear.

Just patterns and things that you have seen as you have been doing your podcast and working with folks in this, this area. But just to just start us, start us off for folks who may not know who you are or have not seen the vow or maybe haven't. About on HBO or the, or have listened to your podcast and you give us a little summary of who you are and why you are here.

Sarah: [00:03:00] Sure. So my cliff notes slash, you know, elevator story, which I've had to use a fair bit since moving to Atlanta is that I am, you know, from Canada, born and raised, I. I pursued acting as a teenager and young adult, and I took a little tangent, a little detour when I joined a personal and professional development program, which I was taking to help me with my goals as an actor and my relationship at the time.

And that was really wonderful in many ways for a long time at first. And it ended up being 12 years later, after many missed red flags, I didn't understand what I was looking at. A high control group or some, some people know this term as a cult, but I realized there's basically bad things going on behind closed doors and the personal development program that I'd been touting for many years as an advocate and as a recruiter for the company.

I say company loosely was really a front [00:04:00] for our pipeline, for the leadership. To coerce and manipulate and ultimately not in all cases and not not for me, but for many people sex traffic as well So that's why it is now known as the sex cult in the in the newsletter And I newsletter sorry in the newspapers The headlines media does love a good sensational story.

Sure do. Yes, as they sure do. And my role in that was that I was one of the whistleblowers that showed the physical abuse, which is the physical manifestation of emotional abuse, which had been going on for years in the form of branding. And I showed that on the New York times cover and that led to an investigation and the trial and eventual conviction of the leader.

Six week trial led to 120 year conviction of the leader. And that was I left six years ago. The trial was about four years ago and three years ago, two and a half years ago. My sense of time is a [00:05:00] little off. My husband and I were in a docuseries that, that documented this whole journey, how we got in and how we escaped on HBO max called the vow.

And that really propelled us into this really interesting space where, where we were now sharing something that a lot of people could relate to is like, Oh, I would've, I would've totally joined that. And that's flipped the script as a lot up until then. So many people we encountered, especially since leaving and shouting from the rooftops, we were in a cult you know, they were watching it going.

I could have, I could have fallen for that when that's very different when the past people would say I would never have fallen for that. And that's opened up a whole, you know, set of bizarre doors and opportunities for us as whistleblowers and survivors to speak about our experience. Educate people. And that's been like a phenomenally rewarding thing.

And ironically, and I didn't say this at the beginning, I, one of the reasons I joined next team as well was to help people. I was, you know, I really enjoyed that process and [00:06:00] now I get to do it for real on the other side and help educate, shine light, prevent, help people get out. If they're already in something, help people heal.

If they've already gotten out. All the different stages along the way and help families. And overall just bring awareness to this topic that is kind of become a lot more mainstream now. Narcissism, cultic abuse, gaslighting. It's much more accessible and people are more aware of it. So it's been an interesting time to be part of the zeitgeist in that way.

And and then now we have a podcast that emerged in COVID when we had stopped acting. So it's been a interesting, organic progression to be a podcaster as I wrote a book and also and now doing more speaking events and panels on the topic. So yeah, here we are. There we are. Yeah. Cliff notes.

Katherine: Yes. I remember watching the vow. I don't remember. I think it was in during COVID watching it and [00:07:00] had just left an abusive church. And that was cult cults like they're definitely very high control, very lot of, you know, stuff being hidden by religiosity and God speak and Jesus talk. And I, I, a lot of us.

who had left were like, have you seen The Vow? Have you guys been watching The Vow? Are you watching The Vow? Because The Vow is like very, very, very similar to what we just went through. And I think that that was the thing that stood out to me as well as how engaging it was. And it just I was like, that sounds like Christianity, like so much of so much of the, the attraction and the way that like the evangelizing that was happening and the way that people were getting brought into this thing that, that was presented as this very good thing.

And in some ways it seemed like it actually was a good thing. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that part of [00:08:00] it of like what attracted you to this. And like, what, what drew you in as a very professional human being?

Sarah: Yeah. You know what? There's every single group that we've ever talked to anyone about in our podcast.

There is always good stuff on the outside. And that's actually one of the first questions we ask people so that others can. See what some of those red flags are of like, you know, what's the catch with this perfect, shiny, amazing, happy community. Well, what, what drew me in was a number of things. And, and partly it was, you know, the age that I was.

Where I was, you know, doing this acting work and it wasn't really filling my soul. It wasn't filling my cup in terms of like, this is not the meaningful work that I want to be doing. And the thought of. Cause really they offered a lot of things. The community was presented almost in a way that would appeal to whatever the person wants.

And I later learned to do that for others. Like what, what is it that you're looking for? What I was looking for was a, [00:09:00] a community, a supportive, helpful community. I was looking for more meaning and purpose in my life being a, you know, Being in a Budweiser commercial wasn't like really that meaningful to me, even though it paid well, but it was like, this is not what I signed up for or what I wanted as an actor.

And I've always been into personal development. I've always believed that. And I still believe actually that you can work on yourself or be, you know, be better or like work through. And there was a term that they used. I don't think I was really using this term before was limiting beliefs. That there's beliefs that we have, and I actually do believe that we have still believe that we have limiting beliefs about ourselves.

Like

Katherine: something like, I can't do it. Like, yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Just like, you know, even as an actor, like even thinking things, thinking something like, which was had at the time, like I always get nervous and auditions, there's some beliefs under that about myself that caused me to be nervous. [00:10:00] Which would limit me about, you know, without, with auditions, cause that's like a big part of being an actor.

So I really love the idea of working through my limiting beliefs, being, the best version of myself and, and striving to follow this model. And one of the things that appealed to me, I mean, I didn't like it at the beginning, but I eventually did like it after my first five day training, which is my first foray into Nexium is they offered this growth path in the form of.

Like a martial arts system with different levels and stripes and colors and I liked that. Like I, there was something about that that was measurable for me. If I do this, I'll go to the next level and that, that appealed to me because an actor, we don't have that either, like get the job or you don't, you don't really know why you do or you don't, and you could do all the right things, but not actually go to the next level.

So I liked the concept of being able to. Complete a task, work on a skill, and, and evolve. It was certainty. With certainty. Yeah, it was [00:11:00] certainty in a very uncertain world. Needless to say, I mean, it was all bullshit, but if it was what it was supposed to be, it would have been great.

Katherine: Yeah. And if it is, if it is something that like is actually delivering what it's promising, then it would be a really awesome. Yes, exactly. Yeah, so, so those were some of the good things that drew you in just to create some context for folks what were some of the, like, things that started alarms, that started going off that were like, Hmm, maybe this isn't what it, what it's promising.

Sarah: I mean, Honestly, there were, there were red flags right from the beginning, but I didn't know what I was looking at. If I had done, if I, if somebody invited me to something now that was. And with the education I have, I wouldn't have even signed the paperwork, let alone attended because I would have known, Oh, I'm feeling pressured and they're using a scarcity mentality in order to, you know, [00:12:00] like this is the only one.

And when, you know, when are you going to do this and when are you going to change your life? And any hesitation I had would be. Proof of how I was not ready to commit to my goals. Like it was a lot of manipulation tactics just getting me there. And then once I was there a lot of red flags in regards to what I now know as setting the stage for future abuse.

Even as simple as they said, like, you're going to feel uncomfortable and you're going to feel like you're going to, you're going to doubt that maybe even this is the right place for you to be. That internal dialogue is an indication of what they call the disintegration. So you're either integrated on a concept or disintegrated and any internal questioning was just a sign that you needed to work on something.

I know. So, if you agree to that, which I did. Because I'm, I'm assuming that these people who, I just never, I never projected bad intent because that's the thing is when you give yourself over to a higher power or a higher authority, [00:13:00] you're saying, you know, better than I do. And tell me, tell me what to do.

Tell me how to be. And I was, I was like, okay, well, I pay just paid like 20. 2, 100 is 2, 500 Canadian to spend five days in a room and I want to work on my issues. I am saying, I trust you. You got to tell me what you see and if what they're saying is different than how I feel, that's a problem.

Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, and that's such a such an easy thing to happen and then it's presented as you're like to listen to someone else tell you and name you and tell you what you need to work on and listen to someone else outside of you is. Is held up as like a humble thing and like a character quality.

Yes. And if you were to resist and ask questions or say, I don't feel comfortable with

Sarah: this. And that's, Oh, then I'm also being defiant.

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Or selfish or, or you don't want to work on your issues or you don't really care

Sarah: about this. Yeah. I mean, they said that you should be able to ask [00:14:00] questions and put your hand up, but it was very clear when people did ask questions, you know, how they felt about that.

And also like it was, I learned very quickly that there were names for the feelings I was having that weren't good. So I was just suppress them. And I want also, I'm a good girl, I want to be a good girl, I want to get it right, I like the gold stars. Yeah. I like the validation.

Katherine: Absolutely. And there was a very clear like type of person that fit and you like, learned to

Sarah: fit.

Yes. I learned to fit and I wanted to get the, I wanted to go up the levels and I wanted to get the next stripe. And I learned to override the feelings because the other thing they said is like, you're here to work on your shit. You're here to work on your stuff. So. Yeah. You know, don't leave. We're just talking about these things.

If the sash around your neck, there was a sash systems for the martial arts ranks. If that bothers you, why can't you even talk about it in a room? Like we're just talking about it. So I should be able to talk about it. And so therefore don't leave. If I'm leaving, I'm just running away from my issues.

so [00:15:00] many double binds. We call them massive double.

Katherine: Yes, literally the phrase that popped into my head. Yes. Well, I, I want folks to be able to hear your whole story. And so I'll just plug your book, which is called scarred. Correct.

Sarah: Yes, thank you. And I don't know if you ever do giveaways on your podcast, but we can do that too.

Katherine: Let's do it. Why not? Yeah, I haven't done one of those in a long time. Let's do it. And then a little bit culty, and then also the vow on HBO, or not HBO on max. So those are places that folks can get more. About your story and actually get your get your full story and all the details about that.

And so I want to step into talking about the impact of this. And if you want to talk about the impact like while you were in it and like what, what this coercive control manipulation was doing to you while you were in it. And then very specifically after after you left, like how was so I'm going to ask you to tell us a little [00:16:00] bit about how you experienced this, this trauma showing up for you and what, what did this experience do to you?

And if you want to also share some examples of just similar patterns you've seen in folks that you have been interviewing on your podcast as well. Yeah, just paint us a picture of what happens after this experience.

Sarah: After leaving? Yes. I mean, there was many different stages, I would say, like I've been out for six years and there was a lot of just grief, like I was, I had a massive PTSD reaction or potentially CPTSD just from the sort of ongoing abuse, but I, in many ways, I was like kind of the, one of the least Can I swear on this podcast?

I was one of the least fucked with because, because I was a recruiter and I brought so many people in many ways, they kind of left me alone. I, I had, I was in Vancouver. I was running, I had been running my center. Which is sort of like a. You know, a separate, like, it's sort of like a franchise. Like I had my, I had [00:17:00] my center and I was using the tools and the parts of the program that were good and that I liked.

And I, you know, brought people in that were going up the pipeline to the leadership. So they kind of left me alone, but I, so I didn't have the same amount of. 100 percent commitment. Like I'd never moved to Albany. I'd never moved and given up my whole life. And I always had my foot in reality. In other words, like my foot outside of the compound, it wasn't an actual compound, but some people gave up everything to be there, you know?

And so that kept me in many ways, it protected me and gave me a soft place to land. There's a lot of people I could go to and that I always knew that we. Were you know, people thought that we were in a cult. I, I knew that. And I, and I thought that they just didn't understand. Mm-Hmm. , right. I just, I was like, oh, they don't get it.

And for, for the first couple of weeks. And, you know, I was just going through those people and being like, okay, you were right. And I'm sorry. And I'm really kind of fucked up right [00:18:00] now. Shouting from the rooftop and like doing all the stuff that we did to get the media attention and things like that so there was like different stages of first I was on this yeah rampage of like I got to take this thing down and I felt like I was one of the There's a few of us that were at the forefront of that and I think in many ways It was the ones that of us that could whereas other people were so had been so head fucked and so gaslit and so manipulated that they were like, you know, literally in bed depressed Couldn't move or, or just had to shut down and like pretend it never happened and move cities and like not even deal with it, which people dealt with it in different ways.

My dealing with it was because I've been so public and so such a vouching you know, zealot. I was like a fundamentalist personal growth junkie. Yeah. This is the way, this is the only way, red flag, to person to, you know, to grow and to reach enlightenment or whatever. Like. And so then on the other side, I had to be just as loud.

So that was like one big stage, and I spent [00:19:00] like a long time just on the phone with people, trying to de enroll them, trying to explain like, yes, I was branded, and no, I didn't consent, and no, I didn't know it was Keith's initials, and like, trying to show them that it was bad. And for the people who are real diehards, there's some people who still don't think that was bad.

Because they've, they've so committed their lives to this path. They're so bought in and to look now and go like, Oh, maybe this isn't good is just too hard for them. Like they're just, yeah, it's

Katherine: just too much given to it and it's

Sarah: just, yeah, it's easier to go. No, this was good. You know, Keith may have. I've heard them say you know, this is, maybe he's not conventional, but he always, he's a good person.

Like they, they can't even fathom that maybe he's a bad person. So. That was one of the stages also was like just really

coming to terms with like I lost so many of my of my good friends and I and I and I lost them [00:20:00] quickly. I lost them overnight. So that was a big part of it. Like leaving my community again because I had some community and friends outside of it. I think that was partly what saved me. I, you know, I hadn't burnt all my bridges, I'd burnt many bridges, for sure, but not all of them.

Thankfully there were some friendships I never touched, I never tried to recruit, even though I did try to recruit many people. So I'd say all of, you know, that was a big stage. And then and then I got pregnant. I got pregnant with my second child a couple years after we got out as I was writing a book.

And that was, I was, I was really working through and like having a big catharsis with that process. And having to also say no to, like, I was at that time I was going to do a Tedx talk and I was going to do a bunch of things. I was like, that's gonna be too stressful. And I want to like create a safe, loving incubator for my baby.

And that kind of forced me to block out a lot of the stuff that I've been doing. There was like a sort of an ongoing campaign still to [00:21:00] expose and destroy and I mean, by say destroy, like, Make sure that nobody else was recruited into NXIVM and those things happen. Like NXIVM itself does no longer exist.

There's no company. Are there people who still believe Keith is good? Yes. So I, that's part of the reason why I'm still talking because I want to get everybody out. . And then, and then, and then I'd say that like, I'm most, I think it's a lifelong healing journey, but there's a lot of things that I've done over the years that have really propelled me to another level of healing and yeah, having kids being kind of forced to stay present and not be in that war, that campaign pulled me to another stage.

And then there's just lots of things I do for self care that I wasn't kind of, I wasn't allowed to do. It just wasn't a lot of time for it. Purpose probably. Yeah. On purpose. Yeah. And just like family time and being able to change my schedule and do things like You know, go to the farmer's markets on the [00:22:00] weekend and the old days when in the cult days that like there was never a free weekend, there was never every weekend if there was a free weekend where there wasn't a training and be like, Who should we fly out from the mothership to like, do a coach summit or, you know, oh, there's nothing happening.

Let's organize a, you know, nationwide or citywide barbecue and like, it'll be a great enrollment opportunity. Like every weekend there was something going on with the You know, with my center and you know, three nights a week as well, Monday and Wednesday. And anyways, it was like always just go, go, go, go, go.

So to be able to get my, you know, reclaim my time and, and like clear my schedule, which I think anyone is in any kind of group doesn't realize until they get out of something and they clear their schedule. They're like, wow, there's so much time devoted to this thing. Right.

Katherine: Absolutely. And then probably like a reward for that time commitment is always more and always more and always pushing and, and, and to some extent that's just like wired into our our society.

So when we get into a group that's like that, that just [00:23:00] feels so, so normal. It's like, that's just what you do in this group. I remember being in the, the abusive church and like. It was going through a lot and a lot of people were leaving and there would be these like events that we would have every year.

And there were a few times where we were like looking around and we're like, we've lost staff. We are exhausted. Can we just not do this event? Can we just Not do this this year, because we're so tired and the leadership was like, it was always like, you know, PR move like no we have to pretend like everything is fine and you have to present like a united front to the, to the, you know, congregation and like having to like, you know, just kind of power through these events, and there wasn't this like posture of like what's best.

For you and care. I mean, like want to like intentionally care for this community. That idea of like, no, we know what's best for you and we know what's best. And this is what what's best looks like and always moving and always pushing. [00:24:00] And yeah, just that, that's that environment that I think so many people can relate with, even like a work culture, you know, like, just like.

Work cultures can be like that too. And I think it's safe for us to say, well, then that's an unhealthy work culture. We're allowed to say that, like, we don't have to just say, this is just normal. This is just the way it is. Like, no, we can say that's toxic. Like that's not a, not a helpful environment.

 Did you have any else thing else you wanted to say just about Impact on you, the CPTSD, PTSD, like how is that showing up for you?

Sarah: Yeah, I mean, again, different stages. There was a time at the beginning where I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, I lost a ton of weight. I was just like, I was, Nippy called it sniper mode.

We were just so hypervigilant. Yeah. I didn't know if we were being, you know, like, you know, spied on, if they were coming to get us. We just, yeah, we were a mess. That didn't last too, too long in the scheme of things, but I'm still a little [00:25:00] jumpy. Yeah. Like if, you know, it's so funny. I just said that my husband just made a loud nose in the kitchen and I was like, what was that?

Like, you know, I've been broken into. So, you know, things like that. My trust in humanity is definitely restored. Like, it's amazing how, when we stepped away from that. That world, all these incredible people sort of showed up and you'd think maybe I wouldn't trust them right away. But I was like, I, I felt the difference to like a good versus, I wouldn't say bad person, but like, you know, I just, some, some angels showed up and kind of swooped us up and took really good care of us, especially the people that made the vow.

Like that was a really wonderful experience and that impact of doing the vow. You know, that could have, that could have gone so many different ways. Like that could have, that could have been a shit show for us. And it wasn't. And like you said, you're, you and your friends were listening and watching going, have you seen the vow?

I can tell you, I still get messages from people in all different groups and relationships, mostly things like different [00:26:00] religious offshoots or like particularly closed communities or like the Jehovah's witnesses, a ton of Mormons message, the Mormons especially were like, Oh my goodness, we were in lockdown watching tiger King.

And then we were watching the vow and they're like, Holy shit, we're, you know, in a really not good situation. So that, that continues to be very rewarding for me. And, you know, I think that if had there not been so many silver linings from this experience. You know, I don't know if I would have like recovered like I, it was, it was such a, I didn't mention this before the betrayal, the betrayal wound is one of my, one of the things in my, my therapist, I call it therapist Dan Shaw helped me with and who's a, who's a narcissist expert really helped me see is that when you're people that you trust betray you on that level, it can be a wound that is, takes a while to heal.

And these were like. People I considered family who knew what Keith was up to and they were lying to us. And that's something that I never, you know, [00:27:00] and I always say we underestimated people's capacity to lie. We just totally took things at face value. Oh, Keith is celibate. Oh, okay, cool. He doesn't need sex.

Great. What are all these women around him? Oh, that's part of his team. Like, okay. mean, it's so obvious and I feel probably like I was very naive. Now, but,

Katherine: and, yeah, I'm a trusting person, go into relationships thinking, oh, they're lying to me. Yeah. Most

Sarah: people don't. Yeah. But I do, what I do know now, and I see in almost every group, there's some term for it, which is basically like in a group like ours and every, every group we've looked at, there's this sort of.

Belief that it's okay to lie for the greater good, and it's okay to lie to protect the leader. Or, you know, for, there's some other greater reason it's okay to say, you know, no, we're not doing X, Y, and Z if it means to, to print like. The big picture. It's okay. The ends justify the means.

Katherine: Yeah, that ends justify the mean things.

Means [00:28:00] thing. You said that people came in like as you were leaving and kind of supported you and you said it felt different. Can you describe what that different feeling was?

 I mean, there was just no manipulation. Like I remember once having a conversation with, it wasn't even my therapist, just somebody who's a, who was a family friend who was a therapist. And I had shared briefly sort of what had happened and his first response was, wow, that sounds like.

Sarah: That sounds really horrible. It sounds really hard. Mm-Hmm. And, and then I was like, whoa. Because in nex Im, if I shared, shared something that bad that had happened, the an the question would be, you know, well, how did you cause that? Mm-Hmm. , and you know, what, you know, or, or, or, how did you author that? Or, what's your responsibility in it?

Mm-Hmm. . Or what's missing in you that you felt like you needed to create that? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So all that kind of bullshit was, really upsetting.

Katherine: It sounds like they believed

Sarah: [00:29:00] you. Yeah, they believed me. Yeah. And that's, that's the thing. And also, I had a lot of moments like that where I was like, whoa.

That other way was actually really bad. And I had no idea how toxic it was until I was No longer dealt with that way.

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. And in the church world, it's called the, the, the reverse of that is like, well, what's your responsibility or, you know, why don't you give, or you're being bitter or you're angry or whatever.

And then, and then they'll call that accountability and character development and, and it's framed as this like good thing. When it's just. Invalidation and bypassing.

Sarah: Yeah, I definitely see that in almost every religion is that people are shamed into like to not express a concern because then they're then they're complaining or they're stinking thinking or it's negative or whatever.

So they learn to not say it so there's no there's no place to bring forward a concern. And that's a that's a really that's a [00:30:00] really, you know, great protective mechanism for somebody who's a. Cult a hole. Do you know what I mean? Like, or somebody who's just being a, you know wants to abuse power or do bad things if there's no place for the people around them to, to question it or say, you know, is this good or is this bad?

Then that's, that makes the, the clo we call it the closed loop system, right?

Katherine: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And all of the accountability is like outward towards everyone else, but then that like, yeah. Leader or leadership doesn't, it doesn't, they don't play by the same rules,

Sarah: like, right. Well, that, and that was something also that I saw as a consistent thing is that all of the dogma and, and, you know, there's like a lot of great truth to taking responsibility for things that happen in your life and that's, it can be a good thing, but if it's always.

It's always your fault. And the other person didn't have any responsibility. Then, and that's, that's something I say all the time. Wait, especially in XM. There's no victims and you create everything in your life. Now, Keith is in jail. And he's the [00:31:00] victim. Like he's the victim of the like, Oh, the FBI plan. Oh, the FBI must have planted evidence.

Oh, but, but Keith, how did you cause this? How did you get yourself into jail? Like, where is that? Where is it now? Where is it now? You know, and that, that's, that's such a huge inconsistency and inconsistencies are something that if you, you know, you bring up then you're. Not trusting the process or in the yoga communities, like you have resistance.

What's with your resistance?

Katherine: Oh my goodness. Wow. Yeah. Like the inconsistency thing in the as a, as a red flag is, is something that's It seems to happen a lot. And these groups, there's a, there's a double standard where there's between two different people or it's between the leadership and everyone else or whatever.

That double standard inconsistency is definitely something that pops up I would love to hear from you just a little bit about. Recovery has been like, [00:32:00] and what are things that have helped you?

Sarah: Again, different stages. I think the biggest part of my recovery at first was just talking about it and being with other X members and being able to speak freely without the shackles of the language constraints to be able to say, Oh, Oh, remember that time when so and so did this.

That was a really mean thing to do. We never could have talked that way because that would have been. You know, breaking rank and, you know, all sorts of rules, broken images, expressing that way. And I didn't realize how suppressed I was. I couldn't go up line in my, in the authoritarian, you know, thing because they didn't get in trouble.

And if I went down, that's bad leadership. So I was kind of like, you know, hogtied. I could talk to my husband, which is, I think, kind of a rare situation. And most people in my situation, we just couldn't talk to anybody. And also Mark Vicente, who was the person who brought me in. If you've seen The Vow, he's the director that.

That brought me in, but also got me out. So speaking about it, and then you know, Reclaiming my time educating [00:33:00] myself. I did a lot of watching of other documentaries and podcasts and movies and all sorts of things that really helped me connect the dots. And I have notes from my early days of watching movies like going clear and Scientology or holy hell about Buddhafield and just seeing.

Like, holy shit. This is the, it's, it's the exact same. Like really even in our podcast, every time we interview someone, it's like the, it's the exact same template. Yeah. I mean, some of the content, yeah, some of the content points. It always the same school and learned. We did the same school, even like with holy hell, the leaders doing this, forced ballet classes and with us it was volleyball.

But it's the same kind of like obsession with this one thing. Physical, yeah. Just yes. And like, you got to get this thing right, but the performance and the adulation of the leader and all that stuff. So that was really helpful. And then there's a lot of things that I've done, I guess. So therapy wise at different stages, having an actual cult therapist was really helpful for me.

And I saved a lot of time there because not only did he understand the dynamics, but he actually already knew [00:34:00] Nexium, which was great. So if I said, well, Nancy did this to me once, or Keith said this to me or whatever, he knew what I was talking about. Having a psychologist that didn't have cult training was laborious, but also really helpful because I would have to explain things that, that I realized, like, as, as explaining it, I was out of deprogramming myself.

You know, in one particular moment I was saying to him, Oh, well, in our, in our belief system, we. Believed that needs were like survival based, you know, air, shelter, water, whatever. And anything else was considered a desire and therefore a non integrated fixation. You need to work on like, why did you think you needed this thing to be okay?

Love, connection, community, blah, blah, blah. So then he, I remember, cause he didn't know anything about cults and he was like, well, those are needs to survive. But what about needs to thrive? And I was like, Oh, they didn't want us to thrive. And I always thought that the people in Albany who live there look fricking miserable.

And I was like, [00:35:00] that's why they were miserable. They weren't allowed to have a career or relationship because then they were, they were shamed into like, that that was just a deficiency based desire. In other words, there's something wrong with you that you're even searching. Like, why do you even need that from the outside world to be complete?

So that was you know, an interesting process to have a you know, a cult. A therapist and then a regular therapist, but I think a lot of my therapy came from just talking and educating myself and talking to other survivors. And then there's a whole series of things that I've done and continue to do.

Like I'm, I do yoga, but I do like a not culty yoga. Like there's no dogma. There's no education. There's no leader. There's no, it's just more of like a fitness thing. Because that's how I protect myself, like I don't do kundalini or, yeah, like that. I walk a lot, you know, after this podcast, I will walk and, and like, clear my mind.

Some like sort of spiritual, somebody, some might say woo woo practices that I do, but there's no It's not, it's not like a [00:36:00] tied to a certain school or program. It's just like a little practice here, a little practice there. I take my green juice. I'm very health oriented. I'm all about like getting good sleep and all the things that we weren't allowed.

Like I remember when I started Nexium, I was They would say I have, I would have had an attachment to comfort because I was like, I'm getting my eight hours. And they're like, well, why do you think you need eight hours? And I'm like, well, that's just what, how I function best. And I'm like, why do you think that would if it's a limiting belief?

And by the end of it, I was having like four or five hours of sleep a night to prove to them how much sleep I didn't need and how I could be like such a bad ass, you know, but really I do need, like I, I do best on as much sleep as I possibly can get. So prioritizing that and prioritizing what's right for me and not going with somebody else.

Going on what somebody else says is right for me has been also huge. A lot of baths. I take Epsom salt baths for my CPTSD almost every night. Putting a lot of money on hot water. I'm sure.

Katherine: Hey, it's very sensory and it like, yeah, it's you and [00:37:00] your body. It helps you be present. It's

Sarah: yes. Yes. And you could cut this out if you want, but I also microdose psilocybin a fair bit, which also does, does all of those things keeps me, my body has to be present.

I don't get, I'm not doing it to hallucinate or get high on mushrooms, but it just helps me not be anxious. Yes. So yeah, that's, that's kind of, those are my main, lots of variety. Yeah. Lots of variety. And oh, and hiking, I like love being in nature and that's like super important to me. I try to get out at least once a week.

Katherine: What would you say this is something that like is I think just like a constant question that a lot of folks have and something that I'm, I'm kind of exploring as well is like the difference between having someone help you like a therapist and like that language versus a guru who was like telling you what to do and like, what does it feel like to have that difference.

Or what does that difference feel like? [00:38:00]

Sarah: Yeah, I'd say that that like a healthy therapist feels like they're on a journey with me and they're just, , questioning and , it's like they're going down in the cave with me. We're both shining lights and we're looking together. Whereas the, the guru approach or, you know, like an axiom, I always felt like there was literally like a.

Such a power power difference. Like I'm sitting down here and they would be sitting up there like even the seats were raised and we're kind of looking up at and tell me what to do, like, what do you think and Reclaiming that has been definitely been a huge part of my healing.

Katherine: Yeah, so the guru is more like the expert Mm hmm or life telling you how to do it

Sarah: And I have to be so careful with that too, because I do love to give people unsolicited advice. You know, especially in our podcast. I do like to be

Katherine: like, that's not a good thing. Don't do this.

Sarah: And I'm like, you really need to be taking more baths.

Okay. I'm just kidding. But I'm like, well, what, how do I try to phrase it now? I was like, this is what's worked [00:39:00] for me. This is what works for me. And you can do whatever you want. I don't care.

Katherine: Yeah, no, I like the phraseology. I have to do the same thing. It's like, well, you know, I have that same situation and this is what I try.

Yeah. Do with that what you'll exactly. Yeah. And then that would be as opposed to someone who is like, partnering with you in this journey and, and just like being empathetic to the experience rather than telling Yes. That they know better what you need than you do. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. I love that.

That's great. Any, any final things that you would like to share as we wrap up put all of your information in the show notes, but if you have any information that you want to give folks about how to interact with you,

Sarah: I mean, I'd say like if they want to know the full story, my book in combination with the vow, I think is a really good balance because the vow has my story, but also massive gaps in some things that happen.

But the vow [00:40:00] has a lot of other people's stories. And if you want to go down an axiom rabbit hole, there's tons of other memoirs out there. But I think that our podcast I've, I've been told is very therapeutic for people of all different groups, religions you know, even abuse situations because you're hearing the stories from different, different people's perspectives that.

You're not maybe necessarily as attached to like defending or being protective of your group, whatever that is. So when you hear when other people's stories, you're like, Oh yeah, I relate to that. And it can be, well, it's free. It's free therapy. So not that it's not in lieu of therapy. I'm not saying like, don't do therapy, but it's gonna be a bonus.

And I also say, like, there's some episodes that will resonate and some that won't. Just skip them. You don't have, you don't have to listen to all of them. If it's something that that, that is resonant for people, there's a, we're also on Patreon and we do a lot, we do another bonus episode every week.

And that's more casual. And we answer questions from the audience. We do voicemails. And we also have a Goodreads account. I recommend a lot of books [00:41:00] and I interview a lot of authors. So all of the books that we love are on our little bit culty Goodreads account. And I think the best way if you want to just reach out to me personally is on my Instagram.

I, I answer every message. A little bit culty is a little bit backlogged, but people can check us out there as well. And if they want to be a guest, a little bit culty, they can apply through our website. Oh, the one thing I would say also that's really cool, I think that I did recently is a TEDx talk.

I don't know if you had a chance to see it or hear it. Yeah. It's 15 minutes of like the summary of why people need to educate themselves about cults. It's very, it's like a lot. It's like some people call it the best of a little bit culty in a very short period of time. So it's a lot of quick nuggets.

Yeah. And I think, I think your community would like it.

Katherine: That sounds good. I might reach out to you. I might reach out to you later about that because a couple of years ago I had talked to someone about doing a TEDx talk about spiritual abuse and they kind of discouraged me from [00:42:00] it because it's supposed to be inspirational and it didn't, they're like,

Sarah: that's inspirational.

Well TEDx actually has some kind of like a little bit quality rules. Like you can't talk about politics or religion. Okay. It's in, it's in their rule book. But. So talking about spiritual abuse, I don't know how you would frame it in a different way. You have to frame it in a different way. Yeah. Go ahead and talk about spiritual bypassing and just not mention religion.

Ah,

Katherine: yeah, that's true. True, true, true. Cool. Well, thank you so much for giving us your time. I'm excited to just see what, see what develops. Thank you for all the work

Sarah: that you're doing. My absolute pleasure. It's, it's a total joy to talk about and I will continue to talk about it until everybody is out.

So everyone. Yes. Free the slaves.

Katherine: Free the slaves.