Uncertain

Mattie Jo Cowsert was a pastor’s kid and proud purity ring wearer before she moved to New York City and experienced an unexpected worldview and identity implosion thanks to Tinder and her Jewish roommate. When marriage equality passed in 2015, Mattie Jo decided to share how the queer community was one of the catalysts for questioning everything she’d been taught about this Jesus guy in her first publicly released blog post entitled: God and the Gays. This was the start of her popular blog, God, Sex, and Rich People. Before terms like “deconstruction”, “purity culture” or “Exvangelical'' became hashtags viewed by billions, God, Sex, and Rich People exposed the sometimes painful, sometimes hilarious realities of a young female Exvangelical navigating the diversity of the Big Apple, working for the 1%, and trying to have good sex without hating herself in the city that never sleeps (and never stops sleeping around).

Her book by the same name releases on September 10th, 2024.   

Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitioners

Sign up for Tears of Eden’s newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearing’s upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/about

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

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Transcript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings

[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain.

Uncertain is the affiliate podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse from the evangelical community.

 So I don't think I've had the chance to officially announce, But in April of this year, I partnered with Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery to work as a practitioner for them. Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery is a online agency that works with survivors of spiritual abuse, religious trauma, purity culture, folks who are deconstructing, All of the things, and it's 100 percent online, so you can meet with a practitioner online.

So many folks are addressing the religious trauma that came from evangelicalism, from working in the church, and they're looking for good mental health professionals that understand this. I know that with most of the clients that I work with, they [00:01:00] have already worked with therapists before in the past.

But one of the main things that they struggled with in their therapy relationship was that the therapist didn't understand the nuances and the complexities of the subculture of evangelicalism.

So if you are looking for a mental health practitioner to help you navigate the complex and confusing and very painful journey of recovering from religious trauma and the trauma from spiritual abuse, I encourage you to check them out. I'm a practitioner there. I see clients one on one. I currently have a client.

Few openings for new clients and there are also several other practitioners that have openings for clients as well. So that is an option available to you. Another thing that I haven't announced yet on the podcast is that In April, also in April of this year, I signed a book contract. I am working with Lake Drive Books as my publisher for this book.

[00:02:00] And what do you know? The book is about spiritual abuse. It will contain a A lot of my journey, but my journey also entails working with clients, working with survivors through Tears of Eden,

there are some genuine quotes that are taken straight from some of the podcast episodes here. So you'll be in familiar territory.

One of the gaps in the current literature around spiritual abuse that my book is going to hopefully fill is addressing the reality that The theology and evangelicalism and in the modern day church actually has a massive impact on the rampant abuse that we are now seeing in the church.

I haven't seen a lot of that connection made in the current literature that's out there. Our previous guest from last week, Krista Brown, she made that connection really well. Like this theology actually leads to the abuse. So Other than that, I just really haven't seen that much happening. So that's one [00:03:00] of the things that's going to be showing up in this book as well.

 That's just a little bit of a sneak peek. We'll probably do some sort of launch event through Tears of Eden when it comes out in 2025. The exact date is still to be decided, but subscribe to Tears of Eden's newsletter so that you can get updates on that book when it's coming out and all of the deets around that. The guest today is Maddie Jo Kausert. Maddie Jo was a pastor's kid and proud purity ring wearer, before she moved to New York City and experienced an unexpected worldview and identity implosion, thanks to Tinder and her Jewish roommate.

When marriage equality passed in 2015, Maddie Jo decided to share how the queer community was one of the catalysts for questioning everything she'd been taught about this Jesus guy in her first public release blog post entitled, God and the Gays. This was the start of her popular blog.

God, sex, and rich people. Before terms like deconstruction, purity culture, or [00:04:00] evangelical became hashtags viewed by billions, God, sex, and rich people exposed the sometimes painful, sometimes hilarious realities of a young female evangelical navigating the diversity of the Big Apple, working for the one percent, And trying to have good sex without hating herself in a city that never sleeps and never stops sleeping around.

Her book by the same name releases on September 10th, 2024.

Maddie is hilarious and super fun, so I'm very much looking forward to reading her book when it releases. Here is my interview with Maddie Jo Kausert.

Katherine: Well, welcome, Glenda, to have you here. I love the title of your book. Why don't you tell us the title of your book?

Mattie: I

Katherine: will.

Mattie: Yes. God's Sex and Rich People, a Recovering Evangelical Testimony.

Katherine: Fantastic. And you are coming from New York, where you work as an actor?

Mattie: Mm hmm.

Katherine: Actor.

Mattie: And now [00:05:00] author. Now author. Actor, writer, shameless overshare is what I say. Or sometimes I say actor, writer, babysitter for billionaires. It kind of depends on my crowd.

Katherine: Are you still a babysitter for billionaires?

Mattie: I am. I am a babysitter. You know, something of the, of the unexpected twists and turns my life has taken.

I did not foresee my being like solely raised to be a mom and a wife to be so lucrative. Incredibly lucrative in New York City. There are lots of, of, and I'm not saying this is true of my family, of the family I work for, but there are lots of families in New York that actually don't want to parent their kids.

So I'm great.

Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. I'm

Mattie: good at it.

Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. I had a life where I nannied. I enjoyed it. I like, Mm-Hmm, . I really enjoyed it. And there are times where I consider going back to it because .

Mattie: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Let me know. I know someone looking for a nanny in [00:06:00] St. Louis.

We can get, we can follow up after.

Katherine: All right. Let's do it. But yeah. And I had six younger siblings. Mm-Hmm. . And so like, it was like. Super like, I was like, this doesn't work like this.

Mattie: Exactly. This is just like my life.

Katherine: This is life for me. Yeah. And now I get paid for it.

I like this. Yeah. Okay, cool. So, all right. I'm like trying to like in my head, then boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Okay. So maybe let's start with your, just like your journey, cause you, you're from Branson, Missouri, and you somehow ended up in New York acting and working with rich people. So tell me How you got from point A to point B.

And then if you want to touch on some of the things like the journey, the deconstruction stuff that you you are writing about on your blog and on in your book I would love to hear all of those things and then we can just kind of see where it goes. We're going to have, [00:07:00] we're going to have a great

Mattie: time.

Great. Yeah. And like I kill, I am a loquacious individual. So if you ever need to stop me and say like, you know, just. Interrupt me whenever. So I was born a preacher's kid which if you were a preacher's kid in the 90s, I mean, there are, there are, You know, different varieties of what that could mean. But my variety was of the, the general Baptist convention, which is not, it is an actual like denomination.

It's different from first or second Baptist or Southern Baptist, but like it's, it's generally Baptist, right? I think the only thing that's different, it doesn't matter. There's some theology things, right? And they made their own church from the other Baptists. And. My, I say that, I say this in the book, my roots in evangelicalism are as deep as my roots in America.

My great grandfather was a Baptist pastor. My grandfather on that side was a Baptist pastor. On my dad's [00:08:00] side, my grandfather was a Baptist pastor and then my dad became a Baptist pastor. So it's just, it's, this shit's literally in my blood.

We were Baptist in terms of, like, the traditionally Baptist, but then we, by junior high, we kind of crossed over into the non denominational world, which was very exciting for people coming from a denomination where there was no dancing

Katherine: and

Mattie: lustful hip moving. And now we got, like, You know, a full band and cool, like, spinny lights and a sick sound system.

It was

Katherine: hip Christianity.

Mattie: Yes, absolutely. So then I, I and like, I will mention this, the church that my dad was the pastor at before we switched over to the non denom world is was Stuart, our Alan Clark's church. I don't know if you remember him. He's the one that kind of went viral. For saying that, like, basically having a Trump rally at a church for saying, like, if on a Mother's Day service, like, if you [00:09:00] women are, like, too fat, and your husband's not gonna be attracted to you, and he cheats on you, like, all the things we sort of subtly heard in church growing

Katherine: up.

I've heard, I've heard these, I've heard this before, I wouldn't have connected the name, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Mattie: Super, super great. And he, like, did my He did my grandpa's funeral, like, yeah, so but my, he was not there, obviously, when my dad was the pastor there, but I lived at the parsonage of that church, right?

So then for a while, my dad got, like, a normal person job while he was seeking out, you know, different pastoral opportunities, and we, in the meantime, we started going to this non denominational church, and that was really, like, my home church, and then my dad got on staff at that church as the community pastor.

So even though he wasn't like at the pulpit, he was still like a big part of it. And that was like my, my high school experience was, being at church so much, I was there like so much and it was my whole social life. And to be honest, I think something I don't really highlight enough is I really loved that experience.

Like I loved that I was not [00:10:00] drinking and I wasn't having sex in high school. I got to really enjoy being a kid. And I think a lot of high school. trying not to be the age they are. And I really, I really feel like I got that in high school. And then also like I wasn't really dating and because of like purity rings and everything.

So I didn't have the same amount of boy drama that I feel like a lot of girls are distracted from. And then because at church we learned a lot about like, Cultivating deep, meaningful relationships with people. I feel like I had a really strong friend group. So lots of great things came of my, my time at church, right?

And then, but along with it, you know, was a lot of really bad shit. And I went to college and I I did go to school for theater. So sort of as a natural outcome of that, I started questioning some of what I was, I had learned in church around gay people going to hell and everything. There's a chapter in my book, it's all caps.

Everyone is going to hell. Because like, I had gay [00:11:00] friends and I was like, oh no, all my friends are gonna burn. And And so that was sort of the beginning of me really questioning some of this stuff, but I was still very much in it like I was in a a missions focused group in mission and fellowship focused group throughout college and I had a boyfriend who I totally thought I was going to marry.

We did not have sex. We were saving ourselves. That was a bit of a, like, Capulet Montague tale because he was Catholic and my family was Baptist and, you know, the Catholics aren't real Christians. So that was some fun drama, but in, in dating him, I learned a lot about Catholicism and a lot about the roots of Christianity.

Whatever. And I really feel like I, I developed a love for liturgy that I didn't get in my non denominational background. So in some ways, I feel like it deepened my spirituality being with him, and because I thought we were going to get married there, There's some stuff I could go back to, but I'll [00:12:00] say this and then go back, I guess.

Because I thought we were going to get married, I was okay with like saving myself. Cause I was like, Oh, but we'll still get married by like 22. And then I can have sex. And then we ended up breaking up my, my later in my junior year of college. And I was like, Well I guess that option.

Yeah. And also alongside it, all of I, this is part of like the, the rich people part of my story. When I was 14, I decided I was going to go to summer camp. We didn't really have you didn't really have summer camp that wasn't church camp where I was and you didn't, I didn't really have any access to theater training in Branson.

I know shocking because of all of the live music, but live entertainment, but it was not the kind of theater I was trying to do. Please. I was Broadway bound, you know? And so my parents were like, well, why don't we, I was going through a pretty rough bout of anorexia and I think it was kind of my parents, like effort of like getting my sparkle back.

[00:13:00] You know, they knew I loved theater and whatever. So then I just like Googled this is all in the book. So you can like read it more in depth there. I Googled and I found the top performing arts camp in the country. And I decided, okay, I'll go there. And then I looked at the price tag and I was like, holy shit, people pay this much for camp.

And so then I raised the money. I was like, I was like, all right, I'm going to do this. And I like raised the money to go to camp and I ended up doing it. And then upon arriving at camp, I was like, oh. This is why this camp is so expensive. It's just for rich kids. And like, I was this little me from rural Missouri and I had like done a car wash in the Walmart parking lot to be there, you know?

And so that was a really interesting culture shock and experience. And then, but it was actually I feel like my, Without having words for it, which is actually a really beautiful thing about like being young. Feel like I really had my first real [00:14:00] connection with the divine at being like in a play at camp.

Yeah.

Katherine: And, you know, I love that so much. I love that so much. I wonder so much more about that, but yes, continue. Yes.

Mattie: So then again, sort of without words, like I never, I was never like, Okay, like I never made like a conscious choice that I was gonna be an actor. I just knew I was gonna be an actor. Yeah. I was like, well, this is what I'm designed to do.

I clearly feel the most at home and joyful when I'm doing it. I was really good at it. I was a better actor when I was 14 probably than like college because I was just pure, you know? And and yeah, I was like, And that's when I, yeah, I felt the most connected to God was on, was being in that play. And so then from there on out, I was like, okay, I'm going to go to college for theater and I'm going to, then I'm going to move to New York city.

And I did, I, I did those things. But when I was in college, I felt, and I would like visit New [00:15:00] York every year. during spring break and I would feel this pool of like my sense of adventure and my like wanting to perform and having this love for culture and diversity and really being at not, I don't want to say at war, but in conflict with what I was supposed to do as a woman of God, which was like get married. have kids, all of that, right? And I just, I would always wonder, like, how am I going to make these two worlds happen? You know, like

Katherine: identity on who you are and what you love. And you're so aware that it doesn't fit. In this system that told you you were supposed to be this thing and how just, oh, yeah, just like the, the confusion that probably resulted from that.

And tell me more about that unpack. Yeah,

Mattie: so I felt it was just this [00:16:00] conflict of. Of knowing, you know, like part of the brilliant work of the evangelical church and I would argue like, you know, religious systems in general is the their ability to detach individuals from themselves. So I call it like.

Self severance and the work of deconstruction is actually integration is like actually getting to know and not vilify your feelings your thoughts your opinions because what are we told like if it's not of the lord it's it's of the flesh right like everything is just a dichotomy of like good and evil and so yeah i again i didn't have words for it but i was like why do i feel more connected to myself And more joyful in New York City with all of these like theater weirdos than at church singing songs, you know, and, or like not even at church singing songs, cause I did like to sing.

So I did like that, but I, but more, you know, following the rules, [00:17:00] doing the purity culture thing, showing up in a particular way, not going out and drinking and all of this stuff. And I was like, I just, that just isn't me. Like I'm. I'm like pretty horny and boy crazy and I don't know why that has to make me like less of a Christian But that was that was the competing narrative.

Those were the competing narratives, right? It's like to give up my virginity to give up getting married therefore getting married young, right? To give up these things that were so upheld in the evangelical church would mean that I was not living in alignment with God, and I was not living in alignment with my higher calling.

And another thing that the evangelical church does so masterfully is they really they really, like, pedestalize Yes. And so

Katherine: the

Mattie: heart or

Katherine: something. Sacrifice. this identity would have been more holy.

Mattie: Exactly. Exactly. So luckily [00:18:00] after I went on a mission trip to Indonesia with my missions group where basically the whole time they were just telling us like, look, if you're not willing to like pick up your cross and follow me to Indonesia to be a full time missionary, you don't love Jesus enough.

If you are not willing to be a modern day martyr for the Lord. You're not a Christian. Like you just, like your faith isn't actually the most important thing to you. And then making you feel such shame for that. And I came back from that trip and I was like, okay. All right. So first things first, I guess I'll break up with my boyfriend.

Cause now I have to move to Indonesia and I don't, I know he doesn't want to do that. And then I'm going to, I guess, finish out my musical theater degree, but I'll, I'll move to. another country in the 1040 window instead of moving to New York City. And I talked to my dad about it and he was like, that is such a pile of crap.

Luckily, I say this in the book, I have a, [00:19:00] a father who is like, you know, more like Oprah than he is like, you know Baptist pastor and he was just like to go against what you were designed to do would be going against god What? Yeah, and he was like you Mm hmm. I know i'm really grateful for my parents, which is another thing we can talk about is they're like very like, level headed intellectuals.

Well, my dad for sure. My mom is like, very like common sense. So she, for her, it just doesn't compute. She's like, how could you follow Donald Trump and follow Jesus? Those two things are not the same at all. So there, I'm lucky in that regard, for sure. But anyway, so, so Yeah, that was just the the conflict, but I guess because I was not I was only surrounded by people who thought differently than the than the herd, I guess you would say for like one week out of the year It was like one week out of the year.

I would go to new york city and I would get a different dose of like this whole vast world [00:20:00] that wasn't my own. But then you, I would go back to Missouri and all those questions that would be festering and everything, they would just get stifled because all I'd have is everybody else in my ear saying something different.

And it wasn't until my boyfriend and I like fully broke up and I realized, okay, I am now for sure, for sure. Moving to New York city.

Katherine: What was the boyfriend? The Catholic one.

Mattie: Yeah, yeah I am for sure for sure moving to New York City And the logistics of that with, like, marriage, I don't know, man.

And then, that was really, I would say, like, that was the catalyst for the rest of my undoing. Because now, I really knew I was going to New York. And so, you know, it's like, they say, I had people say to me, well, like, you know, don't let those liberals convert you. So, help. And then I like went, I'm like, well, they did it.

They did their, their [00:21:00] wizardry, I guess. But yeah, then once I got to New York and I just say like, just by living there and I can go a little bit more into that if you want me to, but just by living there, I was just sort of constantly accosted by all the ways that. My, the faith that I had been presented that had these like rules really only worked in a very specific culture outside of that culture.

They do not work. So I, so then I'm thinking like, but this is the God who created like, Like, you know, like, the, the freaking, like, geysers, and, and like fuzzy caterpillars, and then like, the whole galaxy, and he can't find it in his galacting making heart to love gay people?

Like, it just was, I, and the more I was with, you know, These people who were different. I was like, it's just not computing. But you know, honestly, when I moved to New York, I did not yes, the questions were happening and they were definitely like I guess percolating is the right word for it. [00:22:00] But I, I definitely had no intention of like losing my identity as a Christian.

I thought, you know, I thought, you know what, I'll work through this like purity culture thing, I'll figure that out first, and the gay people thing and whatever. But then, once I started dissecting scripture, and I started to do a really big deep dive in like history. textual critic, textual criticism, any sort of like breaking down of, of the Bible outside of like the case for Christ, you know, anything that didn't have like a very strict Christian agenda, things that were just scholastic.

Like I was literally reading textbooks from like courses at Columbia, you know I was like,

don't even think I'm a Christian because if, if I have to believe that Jesus. is the messiah to and that he came here to die for our sins and the resurrection and all of that if i have to believe all of that to be a [00:23:00] christian

Katherine: yeah

Mattie: i don't think i do

Katherine: yeah

Mattie: and it was just sort of like to to have continued to buy into it experiencing everything that I was experiencing, learning everything I was learning would have been the ultimate, like, self negligence.

Yeah. And I had come too far in my journey of authenticity to do that. Yeah. And like, to be honest, I feel like that was kind of my, like, That was my moment where I was like, I will never turn on myself. Because if I can give up this. Yeah. Which is like everything about me. So now everything's going to unravel now.

After this. And it did. And it was not pretty. Then I think I'm gonna always. Be able to know myself and come back to myself. I didn't know that consciously at the time obviously but Which again is like then you're fighting like the youth pastor [00:24:00] jiminy cricket in your head That's like but you're not good.

You can't trust yourself. You are sinful, you know, like you can't All of those things. So everything, I just say like deconstructing is just like a total mindfuck. I at least had the privilege of being geographically removed from it, but most people who are deconstructing, like you expressed earlier, it's like they're still very much in it.

So I imagine that has to be a lot harder. Like I was in a place where, I use this joke, like if you, if I told people in my circles that I had just gone to a worship service, they'd be like, Oh. An orgy? Like, what does that mean? You know, the language just isn't the same.

Katherine: Exactly, and you realize that once you get out of it.

It's like, oh, that is like such this insider cellular conversation. And when you start to use those words, and you're like, oh, this sounds so weird. Yes. Sounds weird because it is weird. Yeah. Yeah, because

Mattie: it is weird exactly and like the more people that you meet that don't grow up in it. I'm like, that's a really [00:25:00] good like if you really want to like quickly divvy up like what is total bullshit and what is like Okay of what we learned in church, just tell all of the pillars of your youth group lessons to someone who didn't grow up in it and you will figure it out very quickly.

Watch their face. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know if you have any questions about that. But yeah, that's how I got from there to here.

Katherine: This is a dynamic that I was I would love to discuss with you. So I escaped a cult, like shiny, happy people cult when I was in my mid twenties, and I immediately moved to a different country.

And then after that, I went to seminary and then I lived in, I lived in DC and I lived in LA. And I lived in St. Louis for grad school and it, and I can see very starkly the role that [00:26:00] getting out and getting in geographically getting into a different space and being around different people. It just accelerated everything and, so tell me about the role that that played in your life of just like being in the big city and like getting out

Mattie: Yeah, I do talk about that a lot, about like, geographical privilege. Because I was not going to lose my entire community if I said I don't think gay people are going to hell. Some people, especially if they're married and they have kids, and like, If they admit that, some of them it's like tied to their income, like I've talked to people who are in the praise band and they are a paid position because it's a mega church, right?

Like, well, I shouldn't assume, obviously, like, apparently Hillsong wasn't really paying its musicians. But anyway but this is like, You know, that's a big thing. And so absolutely. [00:27:00] And so I do realize that I had that I was building a new community. However, While I wasn't afraid of like losing my community, I was really afraid of judgment from people back home But really it's because I was judging myself like if I can go back and really look at the fears I had during like what I call my my rubble years, which is like I had knocked down a whole bunch of shit But I had no idea how to rebuild it yet.

So I was just kind of like Existing in the atomic wasteland of my previous belief system I think a lot of it was anything I was putting on other people was just stuff that I was fearful of, but reinforced by people saying certain things to me, you know,, like, for example, I went back for a birth or a birthday party.

a wedding of my best friend. And the next morning I was like, hey, I have to tell you something. And she goes, Oh my God, did you make that? Did you make out with my brother? And I was like, [00:28:00] no, you know, it was stuff like that. Or like, I went back for, I was like,

Katherine: yeah,

Mattie: exactly.

It's terrible. Although to her credit, I was going to tell her that me and one of our dearest best friends shared mail. I think that detail is probably important just for this context. That we had shared a really sweet goodnight kiss.

Like that's what I was gonna tell her so it did have to do with a boy But no, I didn't make out with your brother. And then another time I remember After I had started the blog Going home for like a bridal shower, and we were all We were all going out for, like, drinks, whatever, afterwards and some of the guys, like, drunkenly, like, kind of cornered me, and they were all like, so you think you can tell my, you know, future wife it's okay to do other positions than missionary?

Stuff like that. Yeah. Right? It [00:29:00] was this, it was this kind of, or like, I remember one time I went home and for a 10 year reunion and one of my classmates who I'd like been in kindergarten with, he grabbed my butt during a group photo. And I turned around and I looked at him and I was like, what was that?

And he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, don't me to me. And he was like, we know what you write on the internet, Maddie Jo. Oh my god. So it was things like that, that like, you know, these assumptions that just because I was openly talking about sex, that that meant I was sexualized. Yes. Right? Right. And things like that.

I was really, that happened pretty frequently. I think that's a

Katherine: genuine fear for a lot of women. Who are having these journeys, and I will include myself in that, of like, but I'm not going to talk about it publicly because of, it'll put me in danger to some extent of [00:30:00] like, you become this target, like, you're not allowed to just be sexually free without being a ho.

Like, you're not allowed to have sex without being a ho. Like, it's like one or the other. Same double standard rules that have always existed. They just take different forms. Right.

Mattie: Is, you're absolutely right. The danger component of it is very true. And then You know, and it happened in New York too, but I started to use it as kind of a sifter.

Like if I told guys about my blog and their immediate thought was like, oh, she's DTF. I was like, yeah, you're not it. Like you have, you have shrunken me to a 2D vagina, you know, like, And

Katherine: that is a, a perk of that authenticity

Mattie: is,

Katherine: and I mean, and that's one of the reasons why people won't do it, cause it's like, well guys won't like me.

That is actually true. It

Mattie: is actually true. You can, but you can totally see like okay, they're either going to be more interested because they think you're just [00:31:00] ready to have sex with anything. Or they're not going to be interested because they think you're ready to have sex with anything, right? Like air quotes.

Or the third option is they're like, oh, that's really cool. Can you tell me more about your Tell me more about it. Yeah. Yeah. Which is the only okay response. So what you're doing is you're sifting through what I call the misogynist daywalkers, right? Like these are the ones you don't want. And that lets you know it very quickly.

So yeah, to the geographical thing, like I did experience some of that, but the, the removal of it and, oh, here's another thing. I was really afraid my parents weren't going to love me anymore. Like, I know that sounds insane. It doesn't sound insane. Cause I think a lot of people feel that way, but like, I was afraid if I told my parents, like, I, I don't, cause I had, I had realized that so much of like their.

Not affirmation, but like approval of me or what I thought anyway, was around my behavior of being the purity princess of [00:32:00] following the rules of being a, a, a Christ like, you know, young woman. And like, what if I wasn't a zealot for any of that anymore? And I was, I was suddenly very zealous for. The opposite of that.

I was really afraid my parents were going to disown me. They didn't because luckily they were going through something similar because some iffy stuff was going on at our church that you know, they were like, dude, why are church people like this? You know? So I was calling out a lot of the hypocrisy publicly, but they were experiencing it personally.

And so that was again, very lucky, but yeah, being removed from it gave me, I always say like, The greatest gift that New York City gave me was anonymity. Because no one here gave a fuck who I was fucking, when I was fucking, or if I said the word fucking, right? No one was like tone policing me. And I got to just, you know, they say you find out who you really are [00:33:00] when no one's watching.

Yeah, absolutely. And what a gift. Yeah, you know to just be Just being able to make decisions without The wrath of the spiritual side eye you're going to get the second you go in for a coffee

Katherine: Yeah,

Mattie: you know like that was great so I really do and just the ability to be around people from all different walks of life I mean my first apartment in new york city.

This is part of the rich people part. I'm miraculously ended up in a very You specific living situation where I lived in like the penthouse apartment of this fancy building you know, leaning lady, like Upper West Side. And it was four of us and one of the guys who lived there, his family used to own the entire building.

So that's how he had this apartment. And that I could live there for so inexpensively. But anyways, he was born and raised in New York City, went to like the best boy's school in the country. Jewish, right? And then the other girl that was living with us was born and raised [00:34:00] between New York and India.

I'm actually not sure where in India, I should have probably asked. And her family had like tea, a tea business in India, so they were very wealthy, right? And so that's why she was going back and forth between New York and India. And she went to like Harvard Law and Oxford for undergrad. She was Brilliant.

And then the other girl was from Sweden and she was an economist and she was an atheist and like very feminist and you know, and I was like, we had more diversity in my apartment than all of Missouri, you know, so getting to hear their perspectives on things, specifically my roommate who owned the apartment was hysterical because he would call me out on things and, you know, like when I would be having these like equally yoked panic attacks, you know, he'd like kind of call me out on like, It's kind of weird.

You're so concerned about, like, whether or not he's Mormon. Like, did he tell you he was Mormon? You know, like [00:35:00] so it was, yeah. And, and so that really, where if, if your whole world is just every other weekend, somebody else is getting engaged and you're going to their, like, dry wedding, like, yeah, obviously it's not a very expansive place to explore.

Katherine: Yeah. Absolutely. You may already know this, but

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Katherine: And I think for folks, because a lot of folks, especially like the demographic that I work with, not [00:36:00] a lot, but a percentage of folks when they, a lot of them were on staff in churches and experienced abuse and had to leave these churches and had to leave their livelihoods. And on often, it leads to a geographic.

Change.

Mattie: Yeah.

Katherine: It can be so terrifying and so anxiety inducing. And so I think it's really helpful to hear this very expansive positive side of that, which was also what I experienced too. It's very traumatic to move.

Mattie: It's

Katherine: very traumatic to be transplanted into a world that is not familiar. That is 100 percent true.

But the possibilities for what we can encounter. In these new spaces not a reason for difficult things that we go through. I never, I never want to justify the difficult things or prescribe, Oh, the Lord knew what he was doing. Right, right. But I think it can be just [00:37:00] this beautiful world that it can open for us if we kind of just roll with it.

I'm just like, what happens?

Mattie: Definitely. Definitely. I mean, like, I'm pretty sure Linda K. Klein even talks about that in her book, Pure, about how, like, even once she was at Sarah Lawrence, I think she, like, took a trip to Australia or something, and that was when it, like, really solidified for her, like, just being away.

She was like, yeah, this is just, yeah.

Katherine: Yeah, I highly recommend if that is accessible to people, and it's not for everyone, but to The country, get out of your space. Even in a healing season of just like getting out of your space can be so helpful to just not be surrounded by all of these things that are reminding you and, and as you experienced, like just having these things suppressed, like questions that you were having constantly suppressed and you weren't, you weren't in a space where you could ask those questions [00:38:00] and how just like getting out of the space, allowed opportunities.

So that's just a suggestion for the audience. Yeah.

Mattie: Well, and because I will say this, like, because in evangelical circles, there's such a culture of like accountability. I say with air quotes is like, I know from like watching my older sister kind of go through her own process of deconstruction and my book is actually dedicated to her.

I mean like everybody and everybody's business. You know, like you cannot do a damn thing and then and on top of that, like if you are trying to make the decision, you know, like this actually feels really toxic. I'm not going to go to small group anymore. The way they come at you with like every and if you are not yet in a place where you know everything they're saying is bullshit because you have not yet experienced it.

experience to the other side of deconstruction, where you really are like more free and you're happier and all of that, then like them coming at you with like, this is just you not wanting to feel convicted. [00:39:00] And this is you like stepping out of accountability in the Lord. This is, you know, like all of those, like, you're going to be like, Oh yeah, you're probably right.

Like, you know, it's like, it's impossible. And that's why you have to separate yourself because it's honestly just like really it's manipulation and, and you need new friends and it's like really hard to make new friends when you're in the same place too. I think that's tough too.

Katherine: Yeah. And that for forced vulnerability, which is very invasive and very bashing.

And I think that that's another beautiful thing on the other side as well of like, we were, we were so responsible for like, you felt like responsible for your gay friends going to hell and, you know, like, and now it's like, Oh, I don't have to be responsible. I don't have to worry about what your belief system is and whether or not you're going to hell.

I don't, I don't have to do that. Right. Which is great.

Mattie: Right.

Katherine: We have a wonderful time together [00:40:00] and I go home and sleep well.

Mattie: And you don't have to treat your friends like a social, like like tally mark, right? Like, oh, did I share the bridge analogy with them? If I didn't. I probably don't love them, you know?

Like, no, actually, not treating them like an experiment is probably more indicative of your love for them. I remember feeling that in my missions group, too. It's like, Jesus Christ, they'd come at me, I talk about this in my book so people can read more about it there, but they'd come at me with like, How many people did you share the gospel with this week?

And I'm like, how many orgasms did you have this week? Probably that many, like, leave me alone. God damn.

Katherine: And I would just be so mean.

Mattie: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I will say something I went through in my deconstruction to your point of like, these people are not, Like my problem again, one of the like mind fucks is that sorry, I should have asked if I can cuss.

I clearly

Katherine: can. I need to put that as a note in [00:41:00] the, in, in the calendar thing, because people ask me if it's okay. And I'm totally okay with it, but I was like, I should just

Mattie: sorry. Cause I definitely have a potty mouth. But one thing that I really struggled with is, you know, the whole narrative around your behavior.

Is or isn't leading people to Christ. So like when I was going through again, what I call like my rubble years, and I was like, always afraid that like, I couldn't just sin and peace, right? Like internally, every time I like had sex with a guy, I was like, Oh no, if anyone who used to know me as a Christian finds out I'm having sex outside of marriage, Then, what if they think it's okay for them to have sex outside of marriage and then they stop being a Christian and then I'm responsible for them going to hell.

I don't really care what they do, I just want to do me. And I just like, couldn't. You know, like, just living my life all the time, I was like, afraid there was like, someone from my past lurking around the corner, like, [00:42:00] ready to not be a Christian too, just like me, even though I didn't know I wasn't a Christian for like, a long time, I didn't admit that to myself.

But, yeah, I just remember feeling like, crap, so not only am I afraid I'm going to hell, I'm afraid anyone who is witnessing my behavior is also going to hell because of me.

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Katherine: In the time that we have left, I would love [00:43:00] to discuss so you said that you had this divine experience in a play.

What role has art played in that? In your journey?

Mattie: Oh, I love that question. Oh my gosh. It's played the, it's played such a big role. I, you know, little like, theater role double entendre. Yeah. I, when I first came to New York, I was,

I was going to school. Well, okay. Sorry. Backtrack. . I feel like the biggest role that it has played in my life and particularly my spiritual life is that when you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, your life will always be great.

Yeah. Like that doesn't mean that you're not going to have hard times. Like I was taken, I was in a movie right now that has 100 percent on Rotten Tomatoes and is number two in the country. My three scenes. Cut. [00:44:00] I am not in the movie. Like, it's not, it's a, like, it's not that it's not, you know, devastating at times and everything, but you know, I didn't know what I was doing when it came to pursuing theater professionally.

I didn't know anything like there's a whole thing you're supposed to do if you're going to school for theater and do all the auditions and whatever. I didn't know any of that. All I knew is that I really liked to act. I was okay at singing. And if someone took some time, I could probably figure out dance.

And so I just auditioned for two schools. I got into one for their BFA programs. So I just went to the one that I got into. And then even once I left that program, like I just kept, I started to do musical theater professionally or pursue it professionally in New York city. And even after four years, again, getting connected to myself and my, My feelings and everything.

I just came to this point where I was like, this is [00:45:00] so hard. And because I'm Midwestern, I don't know if it's hard because it's supposed to be, like, everything takes hard work, or if it's hard because this just isn't the right path for me. And I would think about camp and I would try to think about the times where I really felt connected and I was like I'm not connected when I sing or when I dance.

I am so in my head about hitting the notes and hitting the choreography. I can't even think about acting, which is the part I actually enjoy. Yeah. So I decided, you know what? I'm not going to pursue musical theater anymore for like a hot second and just try to act. For a year, I'm going to plant myself in New York City and I'm just going to pursue acting jobs and like see how it goes.

And the pressure, like I was, I was, so much more successful at auditioning. I was booking like crazy. [00:46:00] I was having, I had far more success in that one year of pursuing, but of pursuing acting work than I had been in four years of musical theater. And yeah, I've just continued. So now I just do like on camera acting and like plays when they come up, but.

And then same with writing. Like, I've always been a writer. I just never wrote publicly. And so when I started releasing my blogs in 2015, it wasn't because I thought I was a writer. I just did something that I found really, like, it was so enjoyable. And not always, right? Because I, I think Glennon Doyle has this, this quote that's like, I don't like writing.

I like having written. You know, it's like the putting it together is like, Oh, sometimes it's really hard, but I really enjoyed the process of like, piecing together a story in a way that was engaging. And like, I just really, really loved it. And so I've always [00:47:00] followed those, that those impulses, like these sort of, I remember I had this moment, you know, it's dating this guy and he was like rich, whatever he was in finance.

And he sort of had this like, promise of, a less hard life for me. Cause he would take care of the bills and da da da da da da. And so I was like, man, it would be nice to not be juggling like acting and 50 different babysitting jobs and just to live in like a shitty apartment. So I was talking to a mentor of mine and Oh, and there was also this promise of like going back to Germany.

Not promise, but potential going back to Germany. Cause that's where he was from, whatever. So I was talking to this mentor of mine of like, okay, should I just like, you know, get a normal job and sort of like go on this track of like building a life with him and you know, going that way and she was like, well, why, why do you act Maddie Joe?

Like, why do you want to act? And I just like looked at her and I said two things and I didn't even think about it. And I just said, [00:48:00] because I love it and I have to, and like following that impulse, like not even thinking of it, but being like, no, that's just my truth. Like, it sounds so cliche, but like, that's just my truth, you know?

And then I had my mom and I was talking to her. She was like, you've worked so hard to create this whole life for yourself. And you're just going to move to Germany for this guy. Like, you know, so I did have some like you know, strong women in my ears. So that was good. But yeah, I think it's been the way.

That I feel most connected to truth and my knowing and like, it's the thing that has kept me pursuing again to go back to the beginning, pursuing a life of authenticity over dogma or what is right quote unquote, right? What is logical even and that that's not to say that I'm not logical I am like I have a full time job that I also do with all of this other stuff But I just always have to go back to those things because I really believe those things being like acting and writing and the [00:49:00] belief that like I was designed with a certain skill set and with a passion to do it, so I need to do it, because I really believe that why, and this isn't to like diminish or belittle mental health, but I think the reason why we have a lot of mental health in our country is because we don't have a society or an economic system that allows people to explore the things they were actually meant to do.

We, we have a society that celebrates a very specific You know, kind of financial success. And then like for me, I have a job.

Katherine: Great. But not everyone does.

Mattie: Not everyone is. We don't, we don't celebrate that. It takes all kinds. Right. And we decide what is worth what kind of money. So like, even though the guy trading, on wall street is doing nothing to better the world, literally nothing.

Right? Like, he's just making rich people richer. Connecting a global economy, maybe. Like, maybe. It's [00:50:00] a stretch. But that motherfucker makes millions of dollars. The person stacking your shelves at Trader Joe's because it's a less whatever, like, skilled job? Not worth it. Unless we're in a pandemic and then they're considered an essential worker.

Right? Like, It's just, I don't know so it's hard for people to pursue the things that they love in the capacity that I do, and we have lots of other systems in place that make it harder for other people from other incomes, , but but I do think that, like, if you don't do the thing you were looking for.

Designed to do you will just keep finding ways to feel better, whether it's antidepressants or an addiction or, you know, whatever it is, avoidance until you just do that thing

Katherine: exactly. And then you lay on the teaching and the Christianity. And the, how you're not supposed to have your own desires and they're supposed to be God's desires and we're [00:51:00] conditioned to fear our desires or to doubt them or mistrust them.

It takes incredible amount of courage to say, I'm worth it and like my desires matter and these things that I want to do really matter and they're worth, they're worth taking that risk to pursue. And especially for women, I

Mattie: think, especially for

Katherine: women of, of where ours is always supposed to be subjugated to like a family, like having a family or a spouse or something like that.

And and having to create that path is very, very challenging. What do you think, just as we're wrapping up, what are some things that you would share with folks who are Kind of on that same journey, either the deconstruction journey or just like pursuing, pursuing dreams [00:52:00] in the, in the aftermath of all of this toxic teaching that we got.

Mattie: Yeah. Oh man. Well, one thing I wanted to say about like the, the desires thing, right? Two things is like, women aren't even allowed to desire An attractive person like we're not even allowed to say like, oh, I actually don't find this guy Very hot and so I don't want to be in a relationship with him because I am not attracted to him because we are always supposed to we are expected to always put like emotional connection above all right as if Me wanting to be attracted to my partner means that I don't also prioritize emotional connection, right?

Like, these are the kinds of very nuanced ways that I had to pick apart narratives that I would come up against in a pursuit of following my desires. And then there's also, like, the worst thing to be as a woman, but also as an evangelical woman, for [00:53:00] sure, is selfish. It's because selfishness is a sin and we make selfish in those circles synonymous with like what do I say?

Like a, a, a heartless bag of dicks. Like you're just so mean and you don't care about anybody else and you don't care how your actions affect anyone else. It's like, So it takes so much courage. Like I talked to women who have left marriages and whatever. And it's like, Oh my gosh, I huge kudos to them because that takes so much courage to just be like, this is not for me.

And I actually didn't even choose this. I was just kind of like conditioned into it. And and to be selfish, it's not to be a heartless bag of dicks with zero empathy. To be selfish means that you prioritize yourself and if, if you're in a relationship, like if you can't even be good with yourself, you will not be good in your relationship, but we really vilified self focus, especially in evangelical circles, right?

[00:54:00] What I would say to. You know, anyone in this deconstruction journey and like the pursuit of desire or dreams or whatever. I would say Trust trust the process It's not linear. And if you're going through it right now, there are So many resources when I was going through it. We didn't have words like purity culture or deconstruction or any of that So it felt very lonely, but now there are entire communities on my You On my website, I have a purity culture resource guide that in and of itself is going to be a really good start.

And once you start clicking on some of these things on Instagram, the algorithm is going to know what you're looking for, and it's going to give you more of what you're looking for. So you can get communities, you can get books, you can get podcasts and then, yeah, just like, Get really good at sort of the personal development side of it, which is like self aware about what are your thoughts, identifying your thoughts, where are they coming from?

[00:55:00] Because another masterful manipulation tool, the evangelical church knew about is neuro pathways. Your brain doesn't know the difference between a truth and a lie. It only knows what you tell it is the truth and what you tell it is a lie. So you actually have this amazing power as an individual to reconstruct what you believe is true and what you believe is a lie.

And it takes work, right? It takes like, I call it like Jedi mind tricks, right? Like watch your thoughts. You got to grab your thoughts and then you got to decide, see where it's coming from, examine it, and then replace it with a new thought. And then before you know it, you really will have like a whole different brain chemistry happening.

And you won't be so afraid of like going to hell if you don't do a morning Devo. But I think, I think don't underestimate the power of like the sort of like personal development of it all because you really are trying to change your brain and your truth.

Oh, here's the other thing. You actually have a say in your [00:56:00] life. You are not actually at the whims of whether God is blessing you or punishing you. And that's where That's where that brain reconstruction happens because I, I cannot tell you how much better my life got when I learned that.

And I, and I realized, oh my gosh, I really have been existing in this space. And I talk a lot about this in the book of like, everything I do is just a system of like punishment and reward. And now I have this, broader perspective and I actually have a say in my life and you actually have a say in your life.

So and then yeah, if you keep putting off pursuing what you know, know you're called to do and it doesn't have to be big, right? Not everybody has to like, you know, have like go through a divorce and like become a van person. It can be as small as like, I really think I'm a writer. I'm going to take 15 minutes to write every day.

It can be that, that. So yeah, I don't know if that was helpful or super blah, blah, blah,

Katherine: but [00:57:00] absolutely no. And I think it's just helpful for folks to hear, especially because I feel like there's a lot of material about like the process of deconstruction and what's, you know, how to do it

and I love opportunities to kind of talk about like. on the other side of it. Yes. After some of the mess has died down and some of the consternation has has settled a little bit. Right.

Mattie: And beware of like the deconstruction movement being a little bit like, oh, we're just being zealous in a totally other way.

Like it is becoming borderline dogmatic and some of it, you

Katherine: know, it is. Yeah.

Mattie: So there's no, there is no right way to do deconstruction. There is no, like you The hardest part of life is that there's, we have very little control and that most everything falls outside of a [00:58:00] category. And so the human design is to want to package everything pretty, pretty well.

simply, but that's just not what being human is. And so your role is to, your job is to just develop tools like through the self help and through therapies and different modalities of how to navigate that, but how you navigate it is not a standard, you know?

Katherine: Yep. Absolutely. And, and us by telling folks where they can find your, all of your things and follow you and prep to find your book.

Mattie: So I do have a blog, so in the meantime, while you're waiting for the book to come out, which is September 10th, 2024 mark your calendars. I have an arsenal of amazing writing if I do say so of myself on my blog. So it's maddiejoecowsert. com. I'm sure it'll be in the show notes. Forward slash or backslash.

I can't remember God, sex and rich people, the word. And or if you just Google Maddie Joe Cowsert. You'll find God, sex and rich [00:59:00] people. It's pretty high on my SEO. And then Instagram is at Maddie Joe Cowsert. So my name and subscribe to the blog because I'm making announcements there. But also it's just like, there's a lot there that I talk about dating.

I talk about sex. I talk about faith. I talk about feminism. You know, so, and like what that even is and how it gets such a bad name or bad rap. And And I talk about sexual trauma therapy. I talk about my experience with sexual violence. And so there's a lot on there that you're not just going to get from this, like one hour podcast.

And so I just encourage you to just go crazy and peruse. And most of them are like an eight minute read at most. And then my book is coming out, like I said, September 10th and we're not doing pre orders. So how we're doing it is just mark your calendars and buy the book on the day of. and leave a review you know, hopefully within like 20 days of it being out and an honest review.

I won't ask you for a five star review, but an honest review because what that does is [01:00:00] as soon as a book goes live, the amount of like sales it has is really what matters. The pre sale thing is just if you're doing like your publisher wants to know how interested people are in your book. So I'm just like, whatever.

Everybody just go buy it on the day. Mark your calendar, go buy it on the day. That is the biggest ask I could have from you. And then if you are interested in being part of my launch team, you can DM me and ask me about that, and I can send you, like, what that would entail. You would get an advanced manuscript, and then you would get, like, visuals of things to put on your social media, to kind of, like, shout it out.

And, yeah, and then on my website, I have been on like a ton of other podcasts as well, so if you want to check out those, all the links are there yeah, but Instagram is really the most. I do have a Facebook page for God, Sex, and Rich People, but Instagram is, is the best. And we're going to be doing a launch, an in person launch as well.

I'm going to try to stream it virtually because I also shot a pilot, a God, Sex, and Rich People pilot back in 2021, and I'm going to finally be airing that publicly. So, yeah, lots [01:01:00] happening. Thanks

Katherine: Yeah, all right, everybody. I will put all the links in the show notes and keep an eye out for that book and all of the other things.

Thanks so much.

Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes.

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