Uncertain

The Final Episode of Season Five (and the final episode of Uncertain) is a very special episode. The Board of Directors of Tears of Eden interviews Katherine Spearing, reflecting on the journey of creating five seasons and 110 episodes. They'll discuss: 

• What Katherine is most proud of during the past five seasons

• How Katherine has navigated carrying stories of abuse and trauma while also being a survivor

• What it's like working with a team and building community after experiencing abuse within a community

• What it's like to pioneer bringing pivotal conversations into the public eye

• How being a woman has impacted Katherine's approach and experience calling out abuse 

• And More! 

Featuring Erin Pickersgill, Nikki G. and Brad Klausman

Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitioners

Sign up for Tears of Eden’s newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearing’s upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/about

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings

 [00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing and this is Uncertain. So today's episode is a special one. It's a little bit happy and celebratory, and it's also a little bit sad. This episode is for the foreseeable future the last episode of Uncertain. It is the end of an era, the end of a journey, and also the beginning of one, I hope. Is the fifth season. We're ending the fifth season. There are five seasons of Uncertain. There's also over a hundred episodes. That's a really big deal. I was planning to sort of end the season with the episode from last week with Janai Amon talking about the How to prepare for telling your story publicly in a safe way.

I was really excited about that episode. I was prepared to end on that episode. And then I met with the board of directors for tears of Eden. Yes, we have a [00:01:00] board of directors. We are a nonprofit. All non profits have a board of directors, and I was really thrilled that they suggested, hey, why don't we do like a final celebratory episode in which we, the board, interview you, Katherine, about the journey we're on.

with Uncertain. And I honestly was so in the zone of like, okay, I need to finish the season. I need to wrap it up. I need to get everything out. I need to do the promo and I need to do the recording and I need to do the editing and just kind of full on just work task mode. And so the fact that the board suggested, hey, let's do an episode to sort of commemorate and celebrate.

That was really helpful. I really appreciated it. It meant so much to me and this episode meant a lot to me as well. This whole journey has meant so much to me. I'm going to talk more about it in the episode itself during the interview. Be sure to sign up for our newsletter, the Tears of Eden newsletter, so that you can stay [00:02:00] updated on everything that is continuing to happen with Tears of Eden, including but not limited to a book about spiritual abuse that I am currently writing and will be releasing next year 2025. Thank you all so much for listening. Uh, so before I start crying, I will turn it over to the board of directors of Tears of Eden.

Here is the final episode where the board of directors interviews Katherine Spearing

Erin: Will you like edit things? Oh, definitely. I'll definitely

Katherine: edit it. Yeah. And I'll probably just kind of speak, speak openly, and then decide later if I care.

you're gonna edit

Erin: yourself. I'm definitely

Katherine: going to edit myself. I probably edit myself more than I edit guests, honestly, because they're going to be going to be real about that. I was like, why do I say like so much? I say like so much.

Erin: You like it. You like it. I like to say like, [00:03:00] exactly.

Katherine: So can we have everybody introduce yourselves? Your name, where you're located, your pronouns, and what how you found Tears of Eden, and then what made you want to be on the board of directors aside from me coercing you into it?

Brad: Nicky threatening my life.

Erin: That'll do it.

Nicole: That's because Catherine threatened my life, so I just was passing down the baton. Hey,

Erin: I didn't get threatened. I feel left out.

Brad: Well, don't worry. That means you saved on therapy bills. It's okay. And

Katherine: we are not a cult.

Nicole: No. No. We've had enough of those.

Katherine: Nikki, why

Nicole: don't you go first?

Okay. I am Nikki G, and certified trauma recovery coach, and I specialize in religious trauma, cult recovery, and narc abuse, and I hail from the state of Texas. And [00:04:00] how did I find this safe space that I found that I'm in right now? Well, I met Catherine, maybe about 2021, I think and we connected that way, came on our podcast with myself and another coach.

And We just hit it off. We found that we had a lot of commonality and our hearts were both centered on, obviously, recovering ourselves, but also helping those who have gone through horrendous forms of spiritual abuse and religious trauma. And so, you know, Catherine reached out to me, I think the end of 2021, and said, Hey!

There's a board seat. You want to get on the board? No, she didn't say it that easy, but she was just saying, I would love to have you. I think, you know we hit it off well, and I think we have the same vision. And so I came on board. I remember her. I'm not going to do that now, but I remember her explaining to me how tears of Eden, the actual name came to being, and I just fell in love with that.

[00:05:00] And she didn't have the strong army. And so I said, yes. And I've been on the board since the beginning of 2022. So that's my story and I'm sticking with it

Katherine: and Nikki has been with me through many a trial tears of Eden related. Yeah. And it's gotten me through many things. Very, very grateful, and also runs the support groups or has run the past few support groups that we've done.

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful support group, support person, wonderful human being. Erin, you want to go next?

Erin: Hi everyone so my name is Erin Pickerskill and I'm the, I'm an Episcopal priest in the Diocese of Missouri. And my pronouns are she, her I've been a priest for a few years and as I was training to be a priest, I was in England and had some of my own experiences of spiritual abuse and religious trauma.

And as I was. Trying to find out if this thing was even real. [00:06:00] Found myself stomping around the British countryside, walking my dogs and listening to Catherine's voice on the Tia's of Eden podcast on certain and like just praying and wishing and hoping that I could find a community that would understand me and validate my experiences and ended up moving to St.

Louis after that. And so did Catherine. So I asked Catherine if I could take her out for a coffee. And And thank her for all of the validation and comfort she gave me and probably many others. And then I strong armed her into being my friend and that's how I do friendship. And but it was just so great.

And so then Catherine asked me to be part of the board like on a temporary basis and I loved it so much. Yeah, I just love being a part of this. community. Did I answer all your questions? Yeah, maybe that was about last year, Catherine, or about a year and a half ago. So

Katherine: I don't remember, but also came on in a torrential season [00:07:00] of personal and tears of Eden nature.

I remember when we both cried. I was like, I don't know. It was like, we laughed. Yeah.

Erin: It was amazing. It was amazing. Yeah. To me, like you were, it was like meeting my hero. And

Katherine: for me, it was just like, Whoa, we both moved here at the same time. Like, I did feel,

Erin: you know, this story that I felt so, so scared, you were going to think I was so creepy because I messaged you and I was like, you're moving to St.

Louis. So am I, let me get you a coffee. Like that is creepy. So I'm so glad that I'm so glad that you you took the chance and let me get coffee for you.

Katherine: One day it was very special. And I'm so grateful that you're on the board. You bring so much life and laughter and fun and we need that desperately.

And we ran into each other literally yesterday, yesterday. It was two days ago, one of those days at a coffee shop. [00:08:00] We're both at the same coffee shop. Yes. This

Erin: is awesome.

Katherine: Yes. I promise. I didn't

Nicole: know you were gonna be there.

Katherine: I didn't know you were gonna be there. You're like, I'm not being creepy. I swear. I was in your car route.

So good. So good. Cannot escape Erin. No. She's always there.

Erin: Oh, that's creepy. Brad's face is so scared. He's so scared. On that note.

Katherine: Yeah, right. Brad, how about you introduce yourselves?

Brad: Well, you know, I didn't know all that about Erin or I may have reconsidered. However I'm here. So my name is Brad. I short, brief history.

I'm a former pastor of 20 plus years in the Southern Baptist church. I escaped with, with no hair, but I escaped and became a certified light coach about four years ago helping people that are deconstructing from religious beliefs. Ideology, trauma and whatever they may go through.

 My pronouns are he, him. I found out about [00:09:00] tears because of Nikki. Nikki and I met through Instagram discovered we had connection. And then she very bluntly threatened me to interview for tears. And right that same day that she threatened me, she sent me an application or something and said, you need to fill this out. And so with that began the process of, of interrogation, background checks floggings, you know, all that. I must say I was incredibly nervous meeting Catherine obviously the brains behind the operation. But I love tears. And the, the mission and the way in which this organization goes about providing resources and meet the needs of those that are, have, are struggling or have been struggling spiritually.

And don't know where they're at. And so that's obviously one of my passions being who I am. I am currently pretty [00:10:00] busy because I'm in the midst of my clinical mental health counseling master's degree. I figure I need I need to replace my past master's degree seminary with something more relevant.

No effect. No offense, Aaron. So you know, just a little, little me thing. It's, it's more of a me problem. So with that being said, I'm just excited to be here. I'm excited about this next step and tears life. Tears of Eden's life and what. The vision that Catherine has and what she's going to be doing next.

So that's a little bit about me.

No, just realize that I am the only male here. So, you know, just saying. Oh, he pulled the mail card. It's really hard for

Nicole: him. Yeah.

Brad: Oh, my privilege is showing. I'm so sorry

Katherine: for you.

Nicole: We're so glad that you're here. This is all in great spirit. Yes. I do

Katherine: remember asking Nikki, like, he is [00:11:00] a white man.

Are you sure? Apparently. Totally fair question. .

Nicole: Yes.

Katherine: No, we love that. I'm very grateful for you. I'm very grateful that you're on the board and grateful that you have been here. You've been through the support group with us too, and you're the champion of re-shares on Instagram, always re-sharing content.

Mm-Hmm, super appreciate that. Yeah. So very, very glad that you're here. And I'm Catherine, she, her, and. Host soon to be former host of uncertain podcast. And this is our celebration episode for five seasons, 110 episodes. And. I guess I'll just announce that this is the final episode for now of Uncertain.

That is why we were doing this episode, the special celebratory episode, Aaron's [00:12:00] idea. So glad that you had the idea. Cause I was just like, ah, we're just going to, you know, have a last episode and then we're going to be done. And Aaron was like, no, we need to celebrate. Can we, we need to celebrate

Erin: you. We need to celebrate you.

That's what we are here to celebrate. So all of you listeners, we're not just. Celebrating this podcast today. We are really intentionally reading it and asking Catherine, like returning the table and asking Catherine the questions about her experience over the last five years.

Katherine: I really appreciate it.

I'll just say that. Really, really appreciate it. Really grateful that you are, you had the idea to celebrate because it needed to happen. There needed to be just like a celebration and a, and a nice little cumulative ending. So I very much appreciate that. So thank you so much for having the idea and are y'all okay.

If I just kind of surrender to you and you decide. What's next for the rest of this episode, even though I feel like the episode's already been awesome so far stories [00:13:00] like, man, why did I interview all of you?

Erin: I would I would love to Nikki, were you making gestures? Do you want to me to me? You're pointing at me?

Wow. Thanks. Okay, thumbs up. I'm gonna I'm gonna so gladly kick us off, Catherine. I'm going to give you a really easy. Easy starting question, and then they're going to get progressively harder, I'm sure. Sweet! I'm ready. Yeah, okay. And listeners, we did not ask Catherine to review or reflect on these questions beforehand, so these are all off the dub.

100 percent improvised. Good luck. Good thing you're good at that. Okay, so listen, I would love to know, What is, as you reflect over the last five years of podcasting podcasting uncertain, what is a highlight of all of your interviews or, or like, what are you most proud of a particular moment?

Katherine: Yeah, I was reflecting mostly on that this morning.

I like [00:14:00] blocked out an hour and I was like, I want to sit with, like, go through all the episodes. I didn't listen to them, but I just like, Went through and like remembered episodes and took notes on things. And I think one of the things that I'm most proud of is, well, five seasons, 110 episodes, but also that we are exploring this topic that we are really pioneering so many different conversations.

And religious trauma is in mainstream culture. We're aware of that as a Western culture, but spiritual abuse is still not a super mainstream conversation. And I think a lot of that just has to do with the culture and, you know, the United States itself identifying as a Christian nation and, and folks more comfortable with the idea that they experienced trauma, but maybe not so comfortable with the idea that so many things that we see as Christianity.

As [00:15:00] normal regular everyday Christianity are actually objectively harmful and coercive and controlling and abusive and shaming and that conversation is probably still about five to 10 years out in terms of being mainstream. So we are pioneering. So many conversations and we're, and we've had so many public conversations already that are conversations that are happening.

Absolutely. But we made them public. And some of the topics that we have addressed on uncertain are the first time that I am aware of that they have been discussed in public. I was just thinking about one of the episodes with Keanu Hadari about Asking the question was Jesus sexually abused and exploring that subject.

Like I've never, we talked about a book. We were referencing a book up until then, like I'd never heard anyone discuss that or bring that into the public light or, or have that discussion of, is that a [00:16:00] possibility? Did that happen? Could that have happened? And so just the fact that we have just pioneered and been forerunners in this conversation, that's probably going to be happening in mainstream culture in like five years or 10 years.

All of these subjects that we are covering is that makes me very proud that, that, that has been something that we've been able to do and explore in a public way that has been helpful to people. So that, that makes me really proud. I'm very proud of that.

Erin: As you should be. What about over to Brad or Nikki for a question?

Brad: So first of all, that was awesome. And you're so right about it not being mainstream yet. Even going through a master's degree in counseling, it's a hard topic, right? Trying to get that relevant. within the education system. So let me ask you this along those lines, and then this is going to be tough for you to answer.

Okay. Because it's, it's broad. All right. Give me something or give us the audience, something that you were [00:17:00] dumbfounded to learn about, you know,

Katherine: on these

Brad: podcasts.

Katherine: Everything coming to my mind has to do with sex. So any of the podcasts that we did about sex or purity culture, I feel like I learned something and I realized like how ignorant I was. and then came to the slow realization that I was kept ignorant on purpose, like it wasn't just like, Oh, I just missed that and sex education class.

There was no sex education class. There was no discussion about. So many different things. So anytime we had like a sex coach or sex and relationship coach the sex evangelicals, Julia and Jeremiah, Lucy Rowett, Kim Cavill, I would ask questions of them, like in those interviews that like, I always wanted to ask, and I was just like, I need to ask an expert and I'm going to ask you in the context of a podcast interview, having no idea what you are going to say, because I actually don't know the answer to this question.

[00:18:00] And so. That is what's coming to mind for me of just like things that I thought about a lot more afterwards and realize the power play in so much of the approach to sex and the withholding of information within the context of church,

Nicole: Nikki. Well, I'm going to rewind back a little bit more and kind of shift. So track back five years ago. What's entered Catherine's mind to start on certain podcasts? Bum,

Katherine: bum, bum, bum. Yes. This, this origin story is tears of Eden's origin story probably came before the podcast. And in 2019, I was still at an abusive church and.

I started researching with the intent of like forming some kind of [00:19:00] more formal community for people who are leaving churches like this, because as I was going through my experience, I was talking to people all over the country, all over the world, and hearing similar stories to mine, so I just realized like, oh, My church is not the only church where this is happening.

It is happening in a lot of places. And so kind of seeing this as a potential need and then wanting to find other people that were maybe already doing this and couldn't find a lot, but did find individual like Or one couple that was ran like a retreat center, like a recovery center for people who had left cults.

And a lot of the folks who came through their center were from Bible based cults. And so the fact that they were naming that and working with that demographic of people, that was an episode with Bob pardon. That is. And the archived episodes that are accessible for monthly donors. And and I, I think about his [00:20:00] episode a lot too, because I feel like I learned a lot just from him, I think decades of working with this demographic.

But I didn't really find. A lot of organizations working with this demographic, but I just had so many interesting conversations with people. And I just wanted a way to bottle up those conversations and share them with other people. And so that's where the idea for Uncertain came from of like, why don't I just like start interviewing people thinking, Oh, this will be easy.

I'd had a podcast before. It was called Frank frog hunting and which I documented my dating dating journey. And so I'd done it before I already had a mic. So I kinda, I kinda knew what to do. And so I just started Begging, bribing, coercing, and threatening people to be on the podcast. And let me, let me interview them to talk about it.

And there was a long period of time where I debated, like, do I want this podcast to be something that I put on my website and it's like separate from the nonprofit? Do I want to [00:21:00] put them together? Are they the same thing? And I don't remember. What led to the choice of like, let's make this part of the nonprofit.

But eventually like that decision was made. I don't remember why. And, and connected it to tears of Eden as a part of tears of Eden. And it became a very pivotal part of tears of Eden for most of tears of Eden's existence. So I'm glad that that decision was made. I made the decision to keep them together.

I think I was worried about the conversations being confrontational and potentially You know, inciting, you know, kickback or whatever. And I didn't want that associated with the nonprofit. I was like, Oh, you could like kick back against me, but don't, don't do it to the nonprofit. And I mean, they became sort of integrated anyway.

So here we are. I love that question.

Nicole: I'll go up to that though. Where did the name Uncertain come from? You might have [00:22:00] said this a long time ago, but for those who came in, like, let's say year three and on where did Uncertain come from?

Katherine: Yeah, that came from a conversation at Coffee in Los Angeles pre pandemic.

So it was probably in February 2020. I was at Coffee. Thinking about the podcast, I think I maybe recorded one or two episodes at that point, hadn't named it yet. Nothing was public. I was with my friend Alex and and so I was actually very specifically talking about the name and like, I don't know what to name it.

Do I name it? Tears of Eden podcast, but tears of Eden doesn't sound tears of it. It doesn't sound like. podcast. And so I, I wasn't really sure. And she was like, well, just tell me like, what do you hope to do with it? And I just, I said, I just want to have conversations. And hold space for us to be uncertain about those conversations and not really have any like agenda and have to have an answer.

We can just [00:23:00] talk and we don't have to conclude those conversations and we can just, just be comfortable being uncertain. And she was like, uncertain. That's a good podcast name. And I was like. Oh, it is a good podcast name. And so yes, Alex Scott, wherever you are is the reason that it is named uncertain.

Erin: I love that.

I, I remember like stomping around listening to those podcasts in the early days and, and loving the name of it so much because yeah, because I felt so uncertain and I felt like all the ground around me was shaking and just to be able to know, to like link into a group and to yourself and to your interviews that, that also was engaging with uncertain topics, you know, it made me feel so less alone.

Yeah.

Katherine: And that's such a pivotal part of the recovery process, I think too, because when we're coming out of fundamentalism, the, the [00:24:00] main marketing tenant of fundamentalism is. The answers, we have the answers, we will fulfill all of these answers, we will tell you how to think we will tell you what to experience and how to feel.

And so the converse of that is being able to sit in ambiguity and uncertainty. And confusion even, and just kind of be able to sit in that and be comfortable with that and not have to have the answers and the onus to have the answers. I think is one of the things that will lead us back into fundamentalist spaces because we're looking to satisfy that, that angst that can sometimes be caused when we don't have an answer.

Erin: Yeah. And so the opposite of being uncertain is being a learner or being curious, you know, and that, that, that sort of, you, you allowed us to be inspired to do that with you, which was, which is so awesome. I kind of, in the context of being uncertain and [00:25:00] having an uncertain posture I was wondering what did the medium of podcasting.

Or even the doing of the Uncertain Podcast bring out in you in terms of strengths, and gifts, and interests, and passions? Like, what did it sort of highlight for you that you maybe before that hadn't been able to explore or know about yourself?

Katherine: I love this question so much. It's like one of those questions.

It's like, I didn't know I want somebody to ask me it, but then as soon as they're asking, and I'm like, Oh, I'm so glad someone is asking me this question. Two things come to mind. First is I learn. And I've only discovered this recently. I learned by doing, and I learned by experiencing some watching maybe.

But I learned by an experience. And so having the experience of having an interview with someone and being in that conversation with [00:26:00] someone, I learned so much and I feel like I retained so much information in that way. Also, I think when I was in grad school. Every paper that you wrote, you had like a limit of how many personal interviews you could do as, as resources for a paper.

And I always maxed out every personal interview. Cause I just really liked talking to people and learning for them. And so. When I got to do the podcast, it was like, Oh, that same part of me, like, I'm, I'm going to learn from having conversations with people more than I'm going to learn from reading their book.

Even though I did read the books of the authors that I interviewed, most of them I I, I really learned more and solidified more in having the conversation than I did from actually reading their book. And so that was a better learning experience for me. And now people are like, you're a [00:27:00] like, Oh, you must have read blah, blah, blah.

And you must have read blah, blah, blah. And you're like up to date on all of the literature, like not really, but I have talked to so and so on my podcast and we have emailed and we've had conversations through Instagram. But. Maybe you haven't read their book. But don't read, read people's books, buy books, support authors.

I will say that if you don't have the money, ask for it from a library because they will order it for you and it will be free. That's my little plug for that. But that was one thing. And then the second thing, this is a little bit interesting. That I wasn't, this was something that surprised me. So when I was growing up in a very fundamentalist patriarchal world, and there were prescribed roles for women and prescribed perspectives of how women were supposed to behave and what a good woman was.

I had a lot of people either directly tell me or passively aggressively tell me that I was mean or M E A N and or, or rude or [00:28:00] harsh or abrasive. They didn't cuss, but they probably would have called me bitchy if they did at a lot of people like make those comments about me, either in the family or in the community.

And so I had this perspective from myself that I was just this really mean disgruntled bitch. But then when I would listen to interviews. And I would like get to re re listen to it and edit it, edit it. And I could hear myself after the fact. And there were particular times where like I asked a question and my memory of the question was, Oh, that was harsher.

That was to redirect or, Oh, I shouldn't have said it that way or whatever. And I would like ruminate on it later. And then I would listen to it back a few weeks later. And I was like, Oh, I'm not. I'm not, I'm not mean, I'm not rude. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not all of these things that people had said about me.

And it took like listening back to myself in real time conversation with some [00:29:00] distance to kind of shift that perspective of myself and sort of see some of that was probably just. Put on perceptions of like what women were supposed to be like, and I just didn't fit that ideal. And I knew I didn't fit that ideal, but I didn't know that that had directly impacted my view of myself, thinking of myself as like a mean.

And rude person. Which I now know it's like, I don't, nah, that's not true. I have, I have mean moments for sure. Itchy moments for sure. But that's not who I am as like my character. And so had years of that being put on me that I got to undo in real time through podcasting. So that was a surprise.

That was a surprise gift.

Brad: So. If I can just kind of piggyback on that a little bit because I was going to ask you a similar question when you started going that direction. I don't know if people [00:30:00] completely understand what now follow this, this wacky train of thought. Okay. So you are obviously a female calling out religious stuff.

Okay. Which naturally would create angst by people that are conservative.

And you're faced with even in all those episodes, you're faced with calling out trauma and and stereotypes and all kinds of stuff that religion has, I guess you could say, impressed upon the minds of many people since they were kids.

When it came to podcasting, how did you not only heal, but keep yourself healthy while going through those episodes?

Katherine: Well, we first have to say, am I healthy? That's a, yeah. And I think that that's one of, one of many reasons why I think that the podcast is coming to a [00:31:00] close now is. The crux of my health is on the line and like my ability to stay healthy physically I'm having to make some difficult choices just for my own personal health.

And there was always, I was always aware there was going to be a time like that it was potentially going to be more than I was able to carry. And so I think. That, that was always just a NAV, a constant navigation throughout the whole experience and dealt with so much imposter syndrome, I think with the podcast of just, I just remember the first season, every episode, every time an episode would launch, I would just.

And I can guess and ruminate and all of the things. And I think always, it always came up in, you know, therapy, especially if there was like a particular episode that [00:32:00] really hit home in a specific way. Early on, there were some folks that I interviewed who, there was one particular, I was remembering that never an episode that never went up.

So there were several episodes that never went up. But when I was remembering, we were talking about characteristics of a toxic church. And I think this was in season one. And as we're having the conversation in real time, the woman that I'm talking to is like realizing that she is actually in real time in a toxic church as we were doing the interview.

And. Before the episode went up, she emailed me and she was like, I don't feel comfortable with it going up just like where I am and I put in my journey and all that kind of stuff. Of course, no problem not going up, but I was still in this like locked into this like I have to get an episode out every week.

And, and so I couldn't get an episode out that week. And, and so I couldn't because it was like care for her or. Not get an episode out. I didn't have anything else in the lineup. And [00:33:00] I just remember just feeling like such a failure because I like, couldn't get an episode up. And now I skip episodes all the time.

So like going through that experience of like, like, what is the definition of a successful podcast and having to. Define that for myself because it is a frontier terrain. And I was like, Googling some articles this morning about like podcasting and statistics and all this kind of stuff. And like, there's some podcasts of like how to do a podcast.

And if you want to be a successful, you must do it this way and blah, blah, blah, as every industry has. And realizing that it is kind of like a create your own journey. You can learn from things that other people have done, but you really have to create your own journey. And I realized pretty quickly that because of the nature of the subject, how heavy it was and how many heavy conversations I needed to listen to my body.

And if I was exhausted, if I was, if I was in trauma [00:34:00] mode, like I was, Working through something and the podcast wasn't something that was going to be help helping that that taking a break was necessary and just had to let, let go of the, the standard of, if you, you have it, you must have an episode out every week in order to be successful.

And that just became less and less important. As I realized that. I'm also a trauma survivor, and I'm also a spiritual abuse survivor, and this stuff is going to impact me, and just being aware of that, not, not pretending like I'm okay, because sometimes I'm not.

Nicole: I can understand where you're coming from with that. It's hard to juggle both, you know, sometimes, but that's another reason why we're here celebrating you, because somehow or another you got through it, and you know, you were able to do this for five years. And for those who may not know, and I don't know if I can spill the beans, [00:35:00] but she Catherine was really a one man show through the whole five years of this podcast, from, you know, obtaining the guests, obtaining the questions and the content, editing all of the episodes that you guys got to hear you know, hearing the feedback sending out newsletters.

Catherine was doing a lot and I think I can speak for her and say this came from the heart. This was a heart effort, you know, and I'm pretty sure a lot of the listeners really, really appreciate that, especially leading the support groups. When, when I connect with some of the group members, a lot of them say they found out about, you know, spiritual abuse and really what they went through from listening to the podcast.

So the podcast was not only helping people to find a safe space but it was a place, a platform. For people to be educated to really, you know, say, oh, wait a minute. I went through that too. That's what that's called. And so I just want to honor you [00:36:00] for, you know, the sacrifices that you made to make this be a real thing.

That's been a lifeline for so many. And since I'm on that. I want to focus on the listeners now because you see the numbers, you see the hits and a lot of people have tapped into Uncertain Podcasts over the past five years. And if you're out there listening, we just want to honor you and thank you for sticking with the podcast and sticking with Tears of Eden and listening to all the episodes.

We really appreciate you for that. But what is some being the fact that you have focused on the listeners a lot. It's not just about, Oh, I like this, this guest. Let me grab that person and put them on. It's okay. Where are the listeners now? We covered this in season one. Now we're going to cover this in season two.

You've been very Intentive as far as how you want it to lay this stuff out. What are some of the messages or some of the themes that you really hoped in your heart? Dr. [00:37:00] Listeners would, would gain from hearing the episodes. What is it that you wanted them to really know and glean from the podcast?

Katherine: Yeah, and I'm really glad that you highlighted that because I think that that is important. Concept to maintain when you're creating any kind of content is who is your audience? And I had to keep in mind, and I did every time I did an interview, Like survivors. And sometimes I would be thinking of specific survivors.

I had had conversations with and questions that we had asked each other and would take those questions. Sometimes I would send out emails to like, if I knew someone really liked a certain author and they had maybe written a blog post about the author, I would like send them a DM. And I was like, . And so I would like send them direct message or an email and just be like, Hey, send me some questions.

I'm going to email interview them tomorrow. And so like kind of keeping that person. In mind [00:38:00] as these conversations are happening every time, every, yeah, just like even how the questions are formed. And I think that the, yeah, just the reality that there are some conversations that we've had on the podcast that I really haven't seen anywhere before publicly.

We did a, a podcast with Laura Anderson on anger, and I think I've seen a few things on anger and the health of anger in other places, usually in the psychology world, not necessarily in the, in the Jesus world. So but just having that conversation also with Laura Anderson, we talked about second wave fundamentalism, the idea of like, we leave these fundamentalist spaces and then we go recreate deconstruction spaces.

Using the same principles that we learned in the fundamentalist spaces. No one's talking about that, like, right now. Like, we're having these conversations that are just, like, before, before it's [00:39:00] time, you know, coming, coming up We had an episode on forgiveness. That was one episode that I was really excited about the episode that we just aired last week that before we did this episode was going to be the last episode with Jani Amon about what if I get sued, protecting yourself when telling your story?

There's not information about that out there. I'm not finding it like I've looked at at a lot of, a lot of it is just like having so many conversations with people and kind of piecing it all together. I don't remember the question, Nikki, I apologize. Where am I going?

Nicole: No, no, I think you're answering it.

Just, you know, what are some of the themes that, you know, you really wanted the listeners to grab hold of and you just said anger and you know what to do with that and forgiveness, which is what I call the F word when you start talking to a spiritual abuse survivor. So yeah, I don't know if there's any more that you can think.

Katherine: Yeah. And I'm also thinking of just like the, the numbers if we're looking at [00:40:00] statistics of like what, what episodes were most listened to people wanted pragmatic, practical advice. Those were the episodes that people will listen to the topic based on the topic for something very practical and pragmatic celebrities.

Most of our listeners did not care. Like I would have on like some big name person and think that it was going to get, You know, thousands of listeners and it got like a hundred and it was like, they don't care if the person is popular, like they were, our listeners were looking for practical application and practical advice for this season.

And that, you know, definitely helped tailor The content of like, this is what, what people want and what they need and what they're looking for. Yeah, so that was really, really special to kind of have that connection to our audience of like, what this audience is looking for. And then also know, like, I am a part of that audience and [00:41:00] like, Oh, Kind of pulling from what do I want to know more about and who are people that I really want to have a conversation with.

I'm thinking about Makoto Fujimora. And we just talked about healing trauma through creating art. That's also an archive episode available to monthly subscribers, but that conversation was so cool. And yeah, I was just like, I emailed Makoto, like, Probably like four times. And then finally he like responded to me.

I was in line to get COVID tested and I like on my phone, got the email that he was like, Oh, I'm so sorry. I don't check this email very often. And I was like, he's going to be on my podcast. And so, yeah, so there was just a lot of conversations that were just kind of came out of like, what did I want to talk about and what was important to me to learn about too, as well.

Erin: I just love how orderly we're doing this. There's like, on my screen, it's like Brad and then Nikki and then it's like so ordered. It's [00:42:00] so proud of us.

Katherine: This organization is spot on. I'm very impressed.

Erin: We did a lot. It's like we planned it, but we didn't. Exactly. Okay. I love that we're talking about actual podcasting.

Cause when I was thinking about this, this interview with you, I was thinking about how important the actual Thing of like, the, the means of podcasting is and how you engaged with it and how it was somewhere different 5 years ago, really in the world podcasting as it is now. And my question for you about that, I kind of see you as someone who is in terms of ending uncertain for right now.

The baton on. Oh, I love that. To someone or lots of people. Yeah. I don't know who they're, but you're doing that. I feel that too. Yes. I feel like you're making space and you're saying you know what you're doing. Like the responsible, beautiful thing of saying, I think. My time here now is [00:43:00] done, but someone else will come and take it on.

So in light of that, in the hope of that happening, cause we would love for people, right. Like, yeah. Continue to engage with this stuff in this way. My question is what wisdom do you have for folks who are going to take the baton and engage in the intersection of, between spiritual abuse and podcasting?

Katherine: Yeah. I think a lot of people feel pressure to start a podcast because it's just something that everyone's doing.

And it's kind of like, if you have an organization or you have a business, like start a podcast and it's kind of something that people. I think maybe feel like they need to do. And, and so my first thing would be like, do it if it's something you really want to do and like, you're really excited about it.

And like, for me, the, the excitement was having these conversations and getting able, being [00:44:00] able to bring them to people. And, and that was the foundation of the excitement for doing this. And so find out whatever your reason is for doing it and let that be. Your passion for doing it, but don't just do a podcast just because everyone else is doing it.

Cause the market is saturated, not saturated with this subject. The subject is not a saturated subject. But yeah, do something that is exciting to you and you might have to discover that. As you're podcasting. And I think that that happened for me of like, I figuring out what type of guests I did like talking to and figuring out which ones I didn't like talking to and just kind of figuring out like, what did listeners, what were they enjoying and what were they maybe not super excited about?

And so like, it's just like anything. Let your passion drive you and , and then be willing to kind of learn along the way. And yeah, those are some of [00:45:00] the, some of the thoughts that I had.

Erin: No, that's brilliant. Thank you. Thanks for passing

Katherine: it on.

I like that pass the baton. I do really feel that way. I like, I feel like it is time for other people to join this conversation and carry this, this conversation through this. mechanism. Yes. It's time for other people to step into this. I do definitely feel that a little bit.

Erin: Okay. So follow up question really quick in your imagination and in your knowledge of the field, who, who are they?

I really

Katherine: hope it's a woman.

Erin: Sorry. Yeah.

Katherine: Or a, or a minority person that had that lived experience. There's already a lot of white men doing this and, and I'm, I'm sorry, Brad, I'm just tired of hearing from white men. I get it. So is he, so tired of it.

I am tired of this too. [00:46:00] Yeah. I just, I just feel like as I, I mean, I kind of went on a fast from. White men in terms of like, I'm not reading books by them. I'm not listening to their podcasts just to kind of, cause I just realized that I was still being drawn to the white male as a voice of authority and trust.

And so I felt like I just needed to sort of detox and, and then just realizing that members of the BIPOC community members of the LGBTQ plus community, women. Are doing amazing work. Like, it's not like we're like missing something, with the absence of the white man, that we are, we're not missing anything.

If we don't have the white male voice. Right now we just aren't so and so I just really hope that the folks who feel that and I think that as someone who like, that's probably my main source of trauma from the church of having gifts that were praised in men, but [00:47:00] because I was a woman, they were sidelined and silenced and shut down.

And then saying, fuck you, literally. And creating a podcast where I sermoned and taught and did all the things that I wasn't allowed to do in the context of church and faced all of the imposter syndrome and all of the, all of the voices telling me that I shouldn't be doing this, that I was doing something wrong by doing this, that I wasn't qualified, that I didn't know what I was talking about.

And, and recognizing that there are a lot of people out there that feel that way and maybe aren't talking. Because of that, because of that oppression and because of being shut down and silenced. And I want to hear from you. So get your mic and start podcasting.

Brad: First of all, I totally agree with everything you said. Totally. Thanks, Brad. I don't even listen to white men. I don't even listen to myself half the time. But anyway right because I want to hear from [00:48:00] minorities. as well. And then they do an outstanding job on every podcast I've listened to, whatever have you, if it's not a white male, I actually enjoy it more.

So that being the case and, and, and Aaron, that was a great question. And, and handing off the baton, knowing what you being considered for all my books, I'm reading school, a minority, Being female, right? What would you say to someone that's thinking about picking up the baton and going with it, that is not a white male, but has trauma from this?

I mean, what, what would you like? You had mentioned about, Hey, people really like to listen to the practical application. Would you say to them to encourage them or to support them? I hate the word encouraged because it's flashbacks. Bible

Katherine: hood.

Brad: So what would you say to support them? [00:49:00] And, and, and picking up that endeavor.

Katherine: What's coming to mind is just how deeply embedded fundamentalism was still in my body once I left. And it just took a lot of time and a lot of just like aha moments. A lot of times. In the context of a podcast interview. And so just enjoying that journey and I'm grateful that the podcast itself was called uncertain.

And I said that word every time there was an episode, because I think it was just kind of like a subconscious reminder of like, just because you don't wrap up the episode with a neat little bow. To tell someone how to do X, Y, Z what's important is that the conversation happened. And you don't have to set yourself up as an expert in a subject to ask questions about it.

I [00:50:00] like that. That's cool. I like that. You don't have to set yourself up as an expert in order to ask questions about it.

Brad: That's awesome.

Katherine: I like that.

Brad: Yeah.

Katherine: That's what I have to say.

Nicole: Okay. Time to get a little vulnerable. I think I know the answer to this question, but I

Katherine: feel

Nicole: very

Katherine: by you, Nicky, your voice is,

I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being here

Nicole: since we're on the topic of, you know, the, the time being passed and you know, more conversations around this topic, I just want to bring some reality to it. Because yes, it's helpful. It's informative. It's supportive to the community, but it's not easy. You know, like I said earlier, you've done a lot of this on your own and I'm pretty sure there's been some bumps in the road.

So real vulnerable question within the five year span of doing this, [00:51:00] were there any moments when you felt like giving up and just saying, you know what, I can't do this anymore. And if so, how did you overcome it?

Katherine: Yes, definitely. . I think there was a, there was a time a couple of years ago, Nikki were very much a part of that season.

That was really, really challenging in. The life of the nonprofit and it really impacted me physically had a genuine trauma response. I think that was the season I both met Aaron and Brad in that season. So I was definitely like at the bottom of the bottom. And I took a month off from the Podcasts from the nonprofit just didn't check email.

Didn't do the Instagram, didn't interview. And I really just sat with like this and like asked myself the question I asked my body, [00:52:00] cause I was, it was a physical impact on my body and I just sat with. Like just asking my body, like you have done enough. You survived abuse as a child. You survived abuse as a teenager.

You survived abuse as an adult. You've experienced so much abuse. You have gotten me through so much. Like you are in charge. Are you ready to be done? Is this the end for you? Are you, are you done? And just like really wanted, and I was really, really willing to just say, if my body is speaking to me and telling me we're done.

Like be willing to, to to end the whole thing and didn't at the time feel like it was time to close up shop. Didn't feel like it was over. Didn't feel like the journey was over yet. But I definitely came out of that. Very intentionally. I just started like writing down my hours for tears of Eden.

And even though I knew I had worked so [00:53:00] much for tears of Eden, I hadn't ever written it down, so I didn't know how much and realized I had worked way more than I thought I did. For Tears of Eden. And so when I'm like getting to Wednesday and I've already done 17 hours for Tears of Eden and I also have a full time job and I'm also in school and I'm also doing other creative projects, I, I was like, okay, that's enough.

Like that is enough for this this work and, and having to be just really intentional about caring for myself. And I think that that's something that every nonprofit leader has to navigate of like, you do so much pouring out to help other people and finding the line of like. Where are you losing yourself in that process?

And I definitely think the physical impact of that challenging season showed me that I had. Like kind of [00:54:00] fragmented a little bit and, and needed to spend some more time just integrating and, and approaching, approaching myself with the same care that I maybe approached other people with and not something that is easy to do at all and it, and it isn't.

And I think that's some of the reasons for the ending of the podcast here is just Again, being in a season where my body has experienced a physical impact and wanting to care for my body and also recognizing it's for the health of the nonprofit too, because if the leader of the nonprofit is exhausted and burnout, that's not healthy for the nonprofit either.

And so it's, they go together. So that is yes. So how did you keep going? Well, I kind of did it, it kind of led to some overhauling of the system. And I think when you reach that [00:55:00] point of, do I want to keep doing this or am I ready to be done, that's a beautiful moment of just. Restock reassess. And I am not a fan of anyone doing something they don't want to do.

And like, if you were for whatever reason you don't want to, I'm not a fan of pushing through that. There are times sure that we do have to do that, but it's a lot less than I think that we have been conditioned to believe, especially in religiosity. And I think that. The pushing, if we feel like we're pushing through and just making it happen, that we're not really in it.

Just take a beat, take a beat five minutes, 10 minutes, five days, 50 days. Whatever you need to just kind of restock.

Nicole: That's that is so good. Catherine. And it's real, you being transparent not just being podcast and running the non profit, but I just [00:56:00] think for survivors religious trauma survivors, spiritual abuse survivors and this, this is, this is gonna make sense with all this, but sometimes we come out of what we've come out of, and You know, we look for justice, right?

You know, we were either sexually abused or physically abused and manipulated in these spaces and we want justice. And as I always say, we can't go march down to the local precinct and say, Hey, Pastor so and so did so and so, you know? So there is this this desire, this voice that is not witness, this grief that is not witness of what just occurred.

And sometimes if we haven't stopped to process and work through that, we can easily go into the activism side. Of, you know, this is wrong, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but before you know it, we're in the activism side, then maybe the advocate side, and, you know, now we have a podcast, now we have a Instagram account, [00:57:00] now we're on TikTok, and we're saying all the things, not saying that there's anything wrong with that, but taking needed breaks to say, okay, why am I doing this, right, and is this harming me physically, is this harming me mentally and psychologically, to hold all of this, And then go out and be a voice.

Sometimes being a voice and having a greater reach is by resting, is by taking a break, is by getting the therapy, working through a lot of that first. And then if something opens up, then go for it. You know, but I, I sell that to say, you know, how you handled the podcast in the past five years is an example of that.

You asked your body important questions. You included your body and say, Hey. What's up, because we've been through a lot together. What say you and your body and the rest of your faculties were like, you know what, this isn't the time right now, you know, I will work with you. [00:58:00] So you can continue to do the work.

But now you're saying their body is saying, It's time to lay this down. And so I commend you for that because sometimes this work, it can seem so enormous. It's like, but I got to be a voice and people are depending on me and who else is going to talk about spiritual abuse this way. And I've got all these topics that have yet to be talked about.

So I have to keep going. I'm, I'm putting this out to the listeners, some of you out there since the five years you've been there from the beginning to the end and you've been inspired by the guest, you've been inspired by Catherine and you're like, I'm rolling up my sleeves and I'm going to do the thing too.

Not saying don't, but sit with your body. I'm pretty sure your body has been through a lot, listeners, with the, what you've been through and spiritual abuse and see if it's the time, if it's the vehicle. Is this, you know, the format. You know, really consider that. And don't leave your [00:59:00] body behind. Nobody's left behind.

Can I say that? Don't leave your body behind, don, your body behind the work.

Katherine: That's the title of this

Nicole: episode. That's I didn't wanna get. Don't leave your body behind because your body is an integral part of the healing. You know, it's not just our soul, it's not just our spirit, but the trauma is in our bodies and it has a voice and wants to speak to.

So I say that to say, Catherine, thank you for listening to your body. Of course, we will miss you on the podcast streets, but we have five seasons to go and rewind and listen to. And we are grateful for you and what you're doing for yourself and for the nonprofit.

Katherine: Thank you, Nikki. I appreciate it. And I do think that the like that, the episodes, like, they're not, I don't think that they're time sensitive episodes.

I think like those resources are still accessible and they'll still be on the podcast, still be on the [01:00:00] website. And now they'll still be on Apple podcasts and Spotify. And so they're not. Episodes, I don't feel like most of them are episodes where they're like, Oh, they're only relevant for this certain season.

I think that a lot of these, these are like active resources that are going to be continue to be available. And I feel very good about. What resources we've created through this podcast. And I'm very happy that they will still be there. So it's like, we're ending the podcast, but this, this creation still exists.

I appreciate that. Thank you,

Erin: In the light of what Nikki was talking about in terms of you grounding in your body and really knowing yourself and being able to. like bend to the decision your body is making at different points. I am making a huge assumption in this question that you have loved working with the three of us.[01:01:00]

That it has been a joy for you. And I'm saying that because it's been a joy for me. And so as I've been And it's like a true joy, you know, like when joy is real joy and you know that because it becomes a source of healing so my question, it's true. And so my question is about like what's, how do you reflect on, you know, Working alone versus working in a team, what does it mean for you to have a team?

What do you yeah, just like, how do you reflect? I, I, I guess I asked that because I see a lot of folks coming from places of great hurt in community and religious communities and wanting to take it alone and wanting to go solo and wanting to be Mavericks. And I. Validate that, you know, that needs to [01:02:00] happen for safety.

How do you reflect though on finding people who you can work with who are safe and how do you do that? You do that discerning and how do you do that work?

Katherine: Yeah. Whew. There's a lot there. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, and I think of like, yeah, like, and I think of like the idea of like wanting to do it alone and needing to do it alone and like, yeah, that is a season that some people needed to go through.

 I think it's really scary. And I think that some of the earlier renditions of tears of Eden, the team wasn't great. And the early people that were involved, I'm not all of them, but a lot of the earlier people.

And I think. Some of that was just like where I was, I was so just out of fundamentalism. And so I picked people who were still in fundamentalism. And so some of those same toxic you know, relational dynamics [01:03:00] still existed within that context of just like passive aggressiveness and, you know, pretending that everything was fine, but you know, it's not.

And, and some of that stuff. And so I think that was some of the. What led to the, do I want to keep doing this? And, and having a good team is so important for enjoying the experience. Oh my gosh, it's so important. But we don't always have the resources to have a good team, to build a good team, to choose a good team.

And, and Some of that is not our fault, like we've been infused with really toxic ways of interacting with people. And, and so, and sometimes we just don't feel safe in community. I know that that was hard for me when I started taking like classes, improv classes. And, and being a part of a class and seeing the same people every week, it felt a little bit like going to church.

And I was, I [01:04:00] had a lot of just like anxiety about just being a part of a group that I saw consistently. And it's sometimes easier to not have that and just have like some one off relationships and kind of go solo because a group and a community and a team could feel really activating. And that's not bad.

And it's also not our fault if we feel that way. And it actually probably means that we were hurt in the context of the community and that's a real thing. So not an answer to the question, I don't think, but just some thoughts. No, it was the answer because I just

Erin: asked you to reflect and you did. And so, yeah, thank you so much.

I won. Yeah, you definitely won.

Brad: This isn't so much a question. It's just a observation of how you answered Nikki's question. By the way, I've been absolutely dumbfounded by the awesome questions of the [01:05:00] board. I think you ladies have done amazing with your questions. Think that your self awareness is head and shoulders above many people I, I meet.

And the reason I say that is within organized religion, people in leadership are taught to the plow through to continue on to push through to it's all for Jesus, right? I mean, like, leave it here because you get the party later or worship later. I mean, like, you know, it's it's a focus on the afterlife more than it is on being healthy here.

I would, I would argue you being able to. Look and step back and say, no, I'm not going to follow that pattern. I think is something a lot of people miss within themselves, because when they leave organized religion, they adhere to those patterns. They just switch it into a different avenue. [01:06:00] Right. But you go, no, I'm going to make sure that pattern never becomes a part of my life.

Nicole: And

Brad: so I just wanted to commend you on your self awareness and recognizing that and something that we all can learn because I've seen people on Instagram that they are trying to heal, but they go from one extreme and religion to fighting and doing the same thing. That they were doing religion against religion, the same methods and everything, and they never heal, but you show healing.

And so I just appreciate that. And I appreciate that vulnerability, that display of wisdom.

Katherine: That means so much. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.

Nicole: , Brad, you brought up some great points and, you know, I think we can all look at that and, and look at, like I said, Catherine's example of, Hey, you know, I want to take care of me in the midst of [01:07:00] trying to help others. I don't want to lose myself. As I'm helping others, you know I heard someone often say there's enough trauma in the world for everybody to have a place to, to try to help and work and see people recover, but not at the expense of us, you know, losing ourselves.

So as we're, as we're winding down. I think, you know, speaking on behalf of the board and the listeners like I said earlier, we're just honored for your sacrifice over these past five years. You know, even the times you had to stay up late or you lost some sleep or, you know, like the times you were ready to give up.

We're grateful that you didn't in the five years. And even now, we don't look at this as a giving up. This is a necessary ending, both for you physically, mentally, emotionally. and professionally. You know, thank you for what you have done to help so many, so many survivors out there and podcast world.

If there was one last message that you could [01:08:00] give the listeners the guests that may still be listening, even though they were guests at one point, what would you say? What would you leave? And this last episode to, to the listeners out there.

Katherine: And it's okay to cry

Yeah. I think I think, I mean maybe I'll just talk to myself of just like , just like, just hang out here. Like, just stay present. Enjoy this moment. We didn't talk about the future. And I think that that's good. Like we don't have to, we don't have to end this, but don't worry. We have all of these wonderful things coming.

Like we can, we can just be in this place. So, you know, saying goodbye, ending a season, celebrating. Being together, being present, reflecting, and that's enough. We don't have to come up with a grand vision and plan for [01:09:00] right now. That's that's at the board meeting in August, for now we could just be present and I think for anyone who is listening, whether you're joining us, just For the first time, maybe, or you have been an active listener or you are a friend that I have texted this episode too, because I want you to listen to it.

That it's, if there's some sadness associated with this, there's some sadness for me. Absolutely. Like judge, we can just kind of hang out with that and hang out with those emotions and that feeling, and we don't have to do anything with it. You can just be. That's what I'm feeling right now.

Nicole: Okay. Well, we love that. Just being, it might be foreign to us coming out of the spaces we've come out of, you know, Brad, I love Aaron's face. I wish I

Katherine: could capture that in audio. I didn't

Nicole: see it. I didn't see

Erin: it. It's so good. That was so good. No, [01:10:00]

Nicole: I'm, you know, like Brad just said, we're always in the futuristic, you know, it's very hard for us to be in the present, but I like what you're saying, Catherine, you know, just be.

And, you know, even though Catherine didn't go into what we, what we're doing next. I will, I personally encourage the listeners, if you've not joined to be a monthly subscriber and you know, you came in listening to the podcast season three, season four, or maybe even season five maybe you can go back and, and, and, you know, become a subscriber to support tears of Eden.

We're doing a lot of shifting because we want tears of Eden to be here for the long haul. But there are a lot of great episodes back in the archive episodes that like, you know, Catherine said they're timeless. So wherever you are in your journey, I'm pretty sure you can glean from a lot of stuff that was poured out in those podcasts.

So think about it, think about becoming a monthly subscriber. It will support the work, but it will also [01:11:00] support you at the same time. Brad, Aaron, anything you want to leave the listeners with. As we get ready to close out.

Brad: Well, white man has talked enough.

Katherine: That's another good title for the episode.

Nicole: That's it. Done. Done.

Erin: I never have talked enough. I have one more thing to say. The, the word that comes to my mind listening to you all today is gift. Keep thinking about you being a gift to this space and the, what wider world of spiritual abuse and, and religious trauma, Katherine.

And what I also hear you say is that doing the podcast has been a gift to you. There's been something at moments where you've been able to use it for your own sense of growth and awareness. And that's been a gift, which is awesome. And so, yeah, just to reiterate what Nikki has invited all of you to do I ask that if Years of Eden has been a gift to you, or Uncertain has been a gift to you, that you would [01:12:00] give back and consider being a monthly donor, because this work is going to continue on and on.

And sadly, we have a lot more work to do. There are a lot more people who need help. To feel what we've all felt, which is the sense of risk, frustration, community, and and that there's life after racial abuse and religious trauma.

Katherine: I love y'all and apply to be on the board. You get to be a part of this.

There's a, there's a way to apply on the website. Just go to tearsofeden. org slash team. Thank you for wanting to have a moment to celebrate. And having that idea and being willing to make this time, it's very meaningful to me to have this really amazing job.

Brad: Thank you, Catherine, for everything you've done. Yeah,

Nicole: this was great. Brad, you are hilarious. I'm coming up to New York and we're going to go grab a drink or something because you couldn't make this crack up.

Come on up and we'll go

Brad: out on the town. We will burn it

Katherine: down. That's right. [01:13:00] Board

Brad: retreat in New York City. Here we go. Yes, please.

Katherine: Do you live in New York City, right Brad?

Brad: Just outside of it. Just outside of Brooklyn and Queens.

Katherine: All right. We need to Do we need to do a retreat to Yes, please. To New York.

Nicole: Oh, we'll. We'll, we will eat like kings and queens. Be

Erin: amazing.

Nicole: Yes. I love

Erin: food.

Nicole: Oh, it's so good.

Brad: That's, see, I knew Erin. I loved you for a reason there. It's See

Erin: the food. We both love it.

Brad: There we

Erin: go. Like a good food plate. I love food too.

Nicole: Especially all the, all the fasting I did in those colds. I'm like, give me food. I don't want to hear about fasting right now. Unless it's for medical reasons. New York City is the place to be for food.

That's right. That's right. Oh, I can't wait. We'll hit the town. Mm-Hmm. . Okay. Are you

Erin: guys joking or not? Because I really [01:14:00] wanna do this. I listen, I wanna

Nicole: do this. Listen, I'm gonna do this too.

Erin: Let's do

Katherine: New York in the fall. The fall is great. Oh, it's so

Brad: beautiful. .

Erin: Yeah, let's go to New York City in the fall. How about

Katherine: Easter next year? Just kidding.

Erin: Yeah, that sounds better. Sorry, Bishop.

Brad: You go back to him and you say, Hey, listen, I got a better

Erin: offer.

Brad: I can, I can do it. Let's go.

Katherine: Sounds like so much fun.

Nicole: I love it. So Catherine, how do you, how do you feel about how today went? It was great.

Katherine: Thank you. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you for having the idea, Aaron. And thank you all for being here. It was fun. I appreciate it. Needed, needed the time to just kind of sit with things and commemorate. And it was nice to do it with people. Thank you all, everybody.

Nicole: You're welcome. Have lovely day. Yes, thank you everybody. Stay safe. Bye. Stay safe.

Erin: Lots of [01:15:00] love. Bye bye. Bye bye.

For the final time. This podcast is produced, hosted, and edited by me, Catherine Spearing. If you would like to support the ongoing work of Tears of Eden, please visit tears of eden.org/support to give a donation.

Thank you to all of our amazing listeners, all the best and signing off for now.