Secular Homeschooling with Blair & Amy

In this episode, we’re chatting about how secular homeschoolers can decolonize our curriculum — and why it’s an ongoing project and not something we can buy in a shiny new curriculum package. Plus why secular history matters and why even though some history is sad, it’s still the most hopeful discipline we have.

Transcript: Episode 6

We use an automatic transcription app for our podcast, which makes it possible for us to include transcripts for our podcast episodes — but it does sometimes make weird errors! We do edit it, but I’m sure we miss things sometimes.

[00:00:00] Blair: I think this is a really important topic right now. You’re going to do most of the talking today, Amy, because this is an area that I homeschooled, but it’s not where my academic spot is, but it is where you have spent a lot of time teaching. Many years ago when I wanted to teach this, there were a lot fewer resources. When I decided to teach American history before Columbus, it was not easy to find information that hadn’t been whitewashed.

[00:00:32] Amy: No, it’s tough. When I started homeschooling my kids, when we started homeschooling, one of the first things that I bought was The Story of the World by Susan Weiss Bauer. I was like, I’m going to get this. I’m going to do this as a read aloud with my kids. It’s going to be great. 

And pretty quickly after I started using it I started to run into what felt to me like problem. Right? Problems with that perspective, problems with whitewashing, problems with it not totally all the time being completely secular. And so because I am me, I spent a little bit of time looking for other curriculum options, and when I did not immediately find the history curriculum of my dreams, I was like, oh, I should go back to school and get a doctorate in history.That would be the best way to tackle this problem. ]

I really enjoyed it, and it was really fun to get a doctorate in history, and I’m glad I did it. But I do not think that it solved the problem of secular homeschooling history. 

[00:01:38] Blair: Okay, so I did not realize that you got your history doctorate while homeschooling your children, and that is such an Amy thing to do, but I almost got a doctorate after I was done writing Biology Two. I got accepted to a doctorate program at Stanford, in the science education program, and I decided not to do it because I decided that I don’t enough hours in the day.

[00:02:11] Amy: There’s definitely not enough hours in the day. I’m glad I did it because I can say, and I can say to you, you are not ever gonna find a perfect, not whitewashed curriculum that does everything that you want it to do. That is never gonna happen in history. Because history is changing all the time.

What you want to do is you want to make sure that you are changing all the time and you’re changing the way that you talk about history all the time. So if you get a secular curriculum that you like, you’ve got to do the work of un-whitewashing it. You have to do the work of bringing critical thinking into it.

You have to do the work of looking for the people whose stories aren’t told. And if you do that work, then you are going to have a great history curriculum that you’re really happy with. 

You’re not going to find it. You’re going to have to make it. And I think that is one of the first lessons of secular history, that you understand going in that there is no perfect curriculum. And if you stop looking for the perfect curriculum, you can go a long way towards building a secular history that you’re going to love. 

[00:03:23] Blair: I want to interject one thing, because you called Story of the World out. So, I started homeschooling, probably before you did, based on the ages of our kids. In 2006, a lot of people would argue that was secular. Totally not, it actually treats biblical stories, I think the story of Abraham talking to God, it treats it as if that is fact. I’m not doing an ad here that you should use Story of the World. I’m actually, you wouldn’t use it. There’s some much, much better choices for a secular homeschooler. But I did want to point out that. In the olden days before these people were writing curriculum it was hard. 

One of the things that when you tell people to write their own. There’s a couple of things that I have found. One, either people are thinking, I’m never going to find the time to do that, or they want to, and then they get in there and they realize it’s a lot bigger job, but the other thing is, how do they know? How do you know what the missing pieces are? 

[00:04:32] Amy: So one of the things that I always tell my students every year when we start history, one of the first things that we always talk about is history and the past. The past is every single thing that ever happened, every person that ever happened to, every experience, every moment, the ones that got written down, the ones that didn’t get written down, but history is the stories that we tell about the past.

And so when we read history, we’re looking at the stories that people have picked to tell. And the people who’ve written down those stories have a lot of times been people who have the privilege and power and education to know how to write, to have time and space to write. And so whenever you look at history, you aren’t, you cannot ever have a completely accurate full version of the past because history and the past are never going to be exactly the same.

What you have to do, you don’t have to make your own curriculum from scratch, but what you can do is you can take the curriculum that you have and you can look at it and you should look at it with your kid and you can say. We’re reading about this king. We’re like, say you’re reading about the Magna Carta, we’re reading about King John, and we’re reading about all these really important, rich British people who convinced him to sign the Magna Carta, who wasn’t involved in all this, and how might they have felt about it?

And you can say, oh hey, we treat the Magna Carta like this really amazing document of democracy. But, what if we look at other countries and see what kind of democratic stuff was happening there? And maybe you go to Africa and you look at the Mandan Charter, which is roughly contemporaneous with the Magna Carta.

And you’re like, oh, wow. Here is a ruler who is doing the same, who is making the same agreements to his people that King John made, but nobody is actually forcing him to do it. He’s doing it voluntarily. That’s cool. So it’s really just, there’s no easy answer, right? I can’t say, okay here’s a list of five things that you need to look for.

The answer is, just look, questions, see who’s missing, say, oh hey, why aren’t there any poor people here? Oh hey, I wonder how this would have been different for women? Oh hey, if you were a person of color here, why don’t they get mentioned? Were there no people of color in this part of the world at this time?

And then go find out, because I promise you, the more you ask these questions, the more of these questions you will find. The more of them you will find, and so you’re never going to get to a point where you’ve answered them all. So you just keep asking them. 

[00:07:14] Blair: So basically, let me distill this tip down. Look for who’s missing. 

[00:07:19] Amy: Yeah, that is a very much shorter. 

[00:07:23] Blair: No, we need yours, but I want to make sure that we give people the tools that they need. The other thing is really look who’s missing. And then I think we can assume that women are present, people in the LGBTQ plus community are present, people of color are present, and that then becomes really important to include.

I was in Peru and we did some museum hopping. I was really horrified that only one museum in all the museums we went to mentioned the enslavement of the Incan people. One museum, and they were low key about it, one museum mentioned the successive viral epidemics viral and bacterial, the epidemics that wiped out 80 to 90 percent of the Indigenous community.

 And look for that, but you have to know your history to know what’s missing . And so that is where it becomes complicated, and I will recommend If you are unsure about what might be missing, that is where groups like the SEA Homeschoolers Facebook group can be really important as you start to put together a curriculum.

Once you look for it, once you look for information, about the enslavement of the Incan people after 80 to 90 percent of their population was wiped out over 40 or 50 years. Once you realize that happened, you can then find information about it. I could not believe that they had taken that out and people were okay with it.

[00:09:26] Amy: It’s really surprising and upsetting that it’s still the case, it’s not like this is magically changed. We are in the process of changing, and so you could be part of the process of changing by the way that you homeschool. The other thing I think, and it goes along with this, is that if you really want to do good, meaningful, decolonized, secular history with your kids, You have to slow down sometimes and slowing down means that you are not going to cover everything.

Oh my gosh, I love the homeschoolers who come in and they’re like, okay, we’re in kindergarten and we want to cover the entire history of the world from the Big Bang to the present day before our kids graduate from high school and you cannot do that. In a meaningful way, you absolutely can’t.

If you never slow down and really dig into specific events, you miss the opportunity to look for the people whose voices are missing because the problem with this big chronological story of history is that it tends to be the story of western history. It tends to be the story of colonizers because they’re the ones who wrote stuff down. And they’re the ones who start the wars and they’re the ones who have the “scientific revolutions” and so if you’re following those stories, you are never going to get beneath the surface to the missing people so I think it’s really important to have this kind of timeline to give your kids a sense of the Your Historical Timeline.

We still — upstairs in our hall, we still have the big timeline from the Big Bang to the present day, and we refer to it frequently and I will probably never take it down because I love it so much. But but the real, the best history that we’ve done together is the history where we dig into a specific event. We spend an entire year looking at something like the Salem Witch Trials, or the Boer War in South Africa, or the Incas. You would spend an entire year looking at something that takes up only a tiny fraction of historical time. Because that is where you can really get intersectional. That is where you can really do the work of finding those missing voices.

[00:11:49] Blair: Here’s the thing, though. From someone who did my best. I had to recreate a couple of things, but I did my best to outsource history or find curriculum that did it for me. You have to know something about that history. The fact that the enslavement of the Incas was missing, and when I asked Peruvians about it, they said, Oh, I think they mentioned it somewhere. I finally asked if it was taught in school. And it’s taught as a small piece in one of the grades. What the people are being taught is that the Incan faith was so closely aligned with Christianity that it was a really easy segue into Christianity. And that’s not true.

So Amy, you say you should spend a whole year on an event. How do you do it if you, how do you choose the event? How do you build it to be enough to be meaningful? Not okay, we’re spending another 15 minutes this week on history. Because what you’re talking about is building in the skills of historical literacy and how you apply critical thinking to history and how you incorporate those experiences. To learn different events and how you choose, because the parent then would also have to choose resources. Give us a step by step how someone might do it, because I think that would be really hard for most people to do.

[00:13:36] Amy: First off, I think that as homeschool parents, specifically, because we are homeschool parents, we are not, we are not teachers necessarily. We are learning along with our students. And I think history is a place where we can really lean into this because you don’t know, right? There’s a lot you don’t know, and so the best thing that you can do is model that kind of learning for your kids.

Show your kids how you learn something that you didn’t already know, right? Pick an event, pick something or person that is interesting to you, that you and your kids have talked about and been interested in. So it might be something that feels whitewashed to you, like you’re like, oh my kid is obsessed with Benjamin Franklin, but I don’t really want to deep dive Benjamin Franklin, because he’s an elitist white guy. And he is an elitist white guy.

But if you deep dive into Benjamin Franklin, you find all kinds of interesting intersections of race and class and gender in colonial America and beyond. Really anything, remember, any subject is fair game for really deep historical thinking. So pick a subject, pick anything, don’t be too precious about it, because it’s gonna grow and expand.

The deeper you go, the more roots you’ll find. So just don’t be afraid to pick something that you’re interested in, honestly. I feel like one of the great things about homeschooling is that we do not have to go through this checklist of things that you have to cover that are really boring that you don’t like, right?

You can skip over those things. Like with my kids, we barely did any war at all. Hardly any war at all, because I don’t like war, and when I was in school and we had to read about like military campaigns, it bored the heck out of me, and I didn’t want to do that with my kids, so I didn’t. We knew that things like that, that the Haitian revolution happened.

We didn’t spend a lot of time on troop movements because I wasn’t interested in that. If they wanted to learn more about it as they got older, they totally could. But I wanted to teach them the skills of history. So the couple of things that go with that, right? So once you pick your event, you want to track down primary sources.

This is actually not that hard. And if you get stuck on something like reach out to me because I am like a treasure trove of primary sources. I’m obsessed with that. So feel free to email me. You can email me, and Blair, at [email protected], and we will happily hook you up with some primary sources. Honestly, you don’t need me, because you could do it yourself. 

And you want to be thoughtful about your primary sources, right? Because one of the things I think that’s really important when we’re trying to decolonize our curriculum is to think about primary sources in a different way. We’re so used to reading things. Newspapers, and journals, and articles, and essays, speeches. And, using SOAPSTONE, good old SOAPSTONE, to analyze them. But you don’t have to do that with just written work. If you just are looking at written work, then you’re leaving out big chunks of people for big chunks of history. So look at artifacts.

Think about who would have used this kind of basket. How would it have been made? What would its purpose have been? Who would have, who would have owned it and who would have used it? What would happen to it when it was worn out? You can analyze objects the same way that you analyze primary sources.

You can analyze art the same way that you’d analyze a written primary source. You can analyze music the same way that you’d analyze a written primary source. And the more you expand your definition of what is a primary source, I think the deeper you can get into things and the more people you’ll find, right.

You’ll find the person who’s carrying the basket. You’ll find the person who made the basket. And I think it really opens up that whose story aren’t we telling a little bit more? 

[00:17:27] Blair: I don’t totally agree with you on leaving out the warring parts. You say you left out war, but I can’t, but if you but you couldn’t have left out all of conflict. The War of 1812 wasn’t covered the actual event, but you probably included what led to the War of 1812 and possibly even some of the outcomes, correct? 

[00:17:57] Amy: I actually find the War of 1812 hilarious and fascinating, and we definitely talked about the War of 1812. But for instance, when I was in elementary and middle and high school, we spent a lot of time on the U.S. civil war. And we spent a lot of time looking at the armies and the specific battles of the specific war. And that is what I mean. Obviously, you cannot study history without studying conflict. 

[00:18:26] Blair: I have an idea, if you’re going to stay with an event, how historians learn history, one of the things is they ask questions, and so I think you could model that for your kids. Let’s say you decide you’re going to learn about the War of 1812 and you’re spending some time on the War of 1812, you could look why Amy thinks it’s hysterical why would anyone think it’s hysterical? 

[00:18:53] Amy: Please go and read about it. It is. It’s, it is a hoot. 

[00:18:58] Blair: Let’s take something a little more serious. The —

[00:19:03] Amy: The Vietnam War, I think is a great —

[00:19:06] Blair: The Vietnam War is much more serious, and ask questions and then have your kids ask questions and then explore the answers to those questions. And I will say the first question I think anyone should ask with war is why were we fighting it? Yeah, I think that’s really important. The question of why we were fighting in Vietnam, why we invaded Vietnam. That actually is really interesting, and my understanding from my reading, because I’m very interested in the time period between the end of the Second World War, called post war, and then the conflicts that came after it, Korean War, Vietnam. Russia who had aligned with Europe and America closed its borders very quickly after the war. Germany was defeated and began gobbling up these countries that Germany had been ruling, as Germany pulled back and, my understanding is America was really worried about the spread of communism in the world. Because what Russia did after World War II was unexpected. 

[00:20:28] Amy: Yeah, so why are we fighting is a good question, and who’s benefiting from the fighting, right? Because wars, historically, are big money makers. People make money off of war. People get what they want from war, and so it’s really interesting to see who is benefiting from war.

[00:20:45] Blair: Who’s benefiting? And the other thing that I think we should always ask is, what were the repercussions for the losing side? Yeah, because a lot of people think that what was done to Germany at the end of World War One is the reason that the German people were willing to go to war a short period later in World War Two.

Anyway, 

[00:21:08] Amy: And there are obviously exceptions to this. Like Hitler is terrible, but most of the time in war, there’s not a clear good guy and a clear bad guy. If you look at like the history of conflict, a lot of times it is more complicated than oh, here is the hero and here is the villain.

Which is not to say that there aren’t people with better and worse motives and people who are acting out of better and worse faith. But it’s really rare for there to be like such a clear-cut villain as someone like Hitler — Hitler is very bad and I think that because that World War II was such a formative war for that the 20th and the 21st century We tend to think that all war is like that where there’s like very clear evil and very clear good. Turns out that is not always the case even something like the American Revolution is way more complicated than yay, freedom, boo, monarchy. It’s a lot more complicated. 

[00:22:06] Blair: A lot more complicated. With all of the time I’ve dragged Amy into a discussion of war, you would think she’s actually really, does like to study it. That’s not the case. 

[00:22:16] Amy: I don’t like the fighting. I’m interested in like the ideas and the things that make people do that, but I never ever want to read another thing about, like, battle strategies and battalions and skirmishes.

Never. 

[00:22:31] Blair: If you’re going to study conflicts, ask about the people who are fighting for these leaders. In World War II, how did the Russians get so many people to, a lot of died on the eastern front. And Europeans or the Americans, especially the Americans, they were surprised, just how do you get that many people to be willing to die? They would shoot people who wouldn’t fight. It was a willingness to slaughter their own citizens. I think you’ve got to ask those questions. 

[00:23:13] Amy: That is what history is, it is asking those questions and then asking them again. And don’t forget that a lot of these questions we’re still asking today — one of the benefits of really digging deep into a subject is that you start to notice it appearing in the news. 

You’ll be reading the Times or the Post and you’ll be like, Oh, wait, there’s an article about the War of 1812 here. Somebody just made some new discovery about it that’s really interesting. Or you read something about the Incas. Somebody finds a historical artifact that kind of changes the way that we see how Incan civilization worked. I, only very recently did I find out that in the American Revolution, most of the people who lived in North America at the time didn’t actually want to rebel against Great Britain. It was a very small percentage of people who led this war movement. And they ended up, having the biggest force and carrying the day. But I did not know that. I grew up thinking that everyone wanted to be free from Great Britain. So it’s, it’s like there’s new stuff all the time.

History is still happening because again, history is not the past. History is the stories that we tell about the past and we’re still telling those stories. We’re still writing stories about the past that become history, which is so cool. 

[00:24:35] Blair: My husband likes to get news from different sources. He will get online, look at an event, and see what Russia Today, how they’re reporting it. He’ll look at how Al Jazeera is reporting something, and he will look at the New York Times and the Guardian. He will go and look for information just to see when the news differs. 

In Russia today, they basically have made their free press illegal. Why do that? That’s the other thing to realize about history, Putin is controlling the news , and we look at that and we’re like, that’s terrible. That has happened so many times in history. 

[00:25:24] Amy: This is it, right? This is, we think about primary sources as being these ancient parchments tucked away in special boxes that you can’t touch. Literally, the headline in the New York Times today is a primary source, and we should be treating them all like primary sources. We should be reading, we should be looking for this variety of viewpoints, just like your husband.

Because that’s how we understand the world, it’s not from one story, but from as many stories as we can possibly find. 

[00:25:56] Blair: I want to go all the way back, because you said today we were also going to talk about critical thinking. And I really would love to help people apply critical thinking. Reading an article from Russia Today, The Guardian, and The New York Times is actually great. How do they differ? How can we use critical thinking to determine that Russia’s portrayal of the conflict in Ukraine is inaccurate?

[00:26:28] Amy: The classic strategy for tackling primary sources, the one that I teach my kids in middle school, is the SOAPSTONE strategy, which probably everybody knows, but I’ll just briefly go over. It’s an acronym. So each of the letters stands for something. So soapstone, the Stands for speaker.

You’ve got to figure out who is telling the story, who’s giving the information you need to think about, oh, the occasion, why is this being written at this time, when and why is this document being written? The agenda.

[00:27:05] Blair: that the individual has. 

[00:27:07] Amy: Yes. Then is the audience, the A is the audience, who is it written for, right? Who is supposed to be reading this and what are they supposed to be getting from it? And then the purpose. Why would somebody write this particular text for this particular audience? What’s the reason? What is it, and then there’s the subject, of course so once you know the audience and the purpose of a document You can better understand the subject, right?

Because a lot of times you think an article is about one thing, you think a diary entry is about one thing, but it’s also about other things. And then of course the tone. Tone all runs together as one word. When you look at things like word choice, how it’s organized, what rhetorical patterns get used, what rhetorical devices get used, what evidence is there, it How does the author feel about what they’re saying and how do they want you to feel about it?

I think SOAPSTONE is a really easy starting point for analyzing primary sources And it as you become a more sophisticated reader and your kids become more sophisticated readers the SOAPSTONE project becomes more sophisticated, too. 

[00:28:17] Blair: When you’re dealing with history, I think the other thing that needs to happen is that there needs to be a defining of terms. Yeah. And I think that you should teach your child to ask people to clarify. For example, Amy earlier said, Hitler, I’m going to take something really easy. Hitler is a terrible person. We agree on that, but that is such a generalization that it’s actually meaningless. Okay, Amy, you gave me your opinion, support it.

And that’s one of the things that a lot of times it doesn’t happen. It very often doesn’t happen in primary sources. 

[00:29:11] Amy: It absolutely doesn’t happen in a lot of primary sources. 

[00:29:13] Blair: One of the things we haven’t talked about yet is actually getting out and doing what I like to call field research. That’s actually any field trip that you go on. I like to get out and look. For example, Chaco Canyon, which I love to visit, I like to go out and look at the indigenous civilization. Go to things like the Hundred Hand Wall that we went to in Utah. There’s a hundred different handprints. Why? What were they trying to say? What was the purpose? And then, try to put that in the context and perspective of what you would be trying to say with that. A lot of that is guess-timation, but so is some of the history that we learned as truth. 

[00:30:11] Amy: Yeah, I love what you’re saying here because I think that is one of that — I don’t want to call it a misconception, but I think this is one of the ideas about studying history that we tend to have is that it’s either something that you do, something that’s all over and done with, and so all you’re doing is reading about it, or it’s something that is only done in super important History Places, like the Smithsonian or the National Archives, when, in fact one of the best places to do history is in your own backyard, almost everywhere.

If you live in the United States, almost every town has its own little historical society where they have they do not have the original Declaration of Independence, but what they have is so much cooler because it’s the history of the place that you live and the people who lived there. One of my favorite projects for high school homeschoolers — It’s sending them to their local historical society and asking them to find the story of a group of people that’s story isn’t told in the historical society. And so they build their own kind of collection for their historical society, which historical societies often appreciate. So it’s a great project that gives back to your community if you want to do that.

But it just reminds you that history is the story of people and a place. Not super important, super special people in a super important, super special place. Like you are history, right? Right now you are gonna be history. And I think that’s just really cool. It’s not all like big events and special moments.

[00:31:43] Blair: One of the things that I think is important is you’re going to use your historical society is to look at their representation of people of color . That can sometimes be missing and to be polite, ask for, but ask for resources. Who were the Indigenous people that lived where you lived?

 So I’m going to ask you a question that you hear all the time. Why is history relevant? Now I know people make the case it’s because history repeats itself, but I want you to explain why history is relevant to learn. Without saying, because it repeats itself, okay? 

[00:32:28] Amy: I think that history is the one indicator that we have that ordinary, everyday people have the power to change the world, to make a better world, to make what they believe is a better world.

History is the story of people doing that. It’s the most hopeful discipline there is, because while we see war and tragedy and difficulty, we also see people getting better and kinder and more open minded all the time. We see the world getting better for more people all the time. And I don’t know about you, but I feel like the world is a complicated and sad place.

My kids worry about climate change, they worry about overpopulation, they worry about using up natural resources, they worry about hate and division. And I think history shows them that people change the world for the better, all the time, and they can do it too. How was that, Blair? 

[00:33:34] Blair: That was awesome. I’m a total optimist. Despite being really aware of some of the things I work hard to live in, what I can control. I thought you did a fantastic job. 

[00:33:48] Amy: But also, history does repeat itself. It does repeat itself. It’s legitimately true. Okay. I do a four year cycle where I look at the Romans, and the Victorians, and the United States, and African kingdoms, and Japan.

And it is hilarious how they all hit the same moment, and the same problems, and the same challenges. Because it does. We keep doing the same thing. And that’s beautiful and human, and also we can do better, y’all. 

[00:34:18] Blair: Okay, so I want to take us back, to just a little bit about critical thinking. So when we talk about defining terms, it is really important. What do you mean about Victorian, Amy? Are you including the Victorians that were colonizers in India? I think it’s really important that we teach your kids to ask those kind of defining questions. Hitler’s terrible. I want the specifics of why you feel that way.

That is a big, important part of figuring out where you don’t agree necessarily on a definition or a descriptor and where you do agree with someone be respectful, but ask them to keep building out. 

We did this with our son. And he is way better at this than I am. When he does not completely agree with me, I’m in trouble. Because he knows that’s coming, and he makes sure that he is really comfortable and knowledgeable about every single point that he’s trying to make.

 Okay. Once you’ve decided on the definitions, what do you do next, Amy? 

[00:35:36] Amy: Once you’ve agreed on your terms, once you’ve looked for evidence and found evidence, you built your own ideas, which is what your son is doing, right?

Which is what we want our kids to do. We, I mean, we’re right. So our kids should agree with that because we’re obviously right. No, but we want kids to have their own ideas. We’re not trying to raise kids who think exactly what we think, exactly the way that we do. We’re trying to raise kids who can think for themselves, who have their own ideas, who are capable of defining terms and building evidence and creating theories and ideas.

[00:36:13] Blair: It’s an evolution. 

[00:36:14] Amy: Part of developing your own ideas and being an independent thinker is strong ideas. 

[00:36:20] Blair: And exploring those ideas. 

[00:36:22] Amy: Yeah, and changing your mind about something that you thought you believed.

Gosh, I will know when I stop doing that, that I need to stop sharing my opinions because if they’re not getting interrogated and changing, then I’m not being the kind of thinker I want to be. Yeah. Thank you. 

[00:36:36] Blair: One of the things to be careful about as a part of critical thinking, I just want to interject, is it can be really important to not allow people to use, one word in a derogatory way to shut the conversation down at a point where they want to shut it down.

For example, you see this happen all the time where people go, Oh, the woke agenda. What does the woke agenda mean? 

[00:37:01] Amy: I actually think that it would be a really fun episode to go through some of the fallacies that people use to do that and to talk about ways that we can help our kids respectfully disarm that kind of commentary.

We live in unprecedented times. I wouldn’t mind living in some precedented time for a while. I would be really happy to have some precedented time. It’s definitely — history is happening all around us, but always is, even when it’s not terrible.

[00:37:28] Blair: Yeah, it’s really interesting. Okay. I think that’s it.

[00:37:31] Amy: Yeah, so that’s a wrap for this episode of Secular Homeschooling with Blair and Amy brought to you by SEA Homeschoolers and Home.school.life. We’ll be back soon to teach you more.