Joe Makston on Breaking the Middle Management Boom-Bust Cycle


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Dec 11 2023 35 mins   1

Middle management has been the butt of jokes for years — and often bear the brunt of layoffs, as was the case in 2023. But in the right hands, middle management can act as the glue that helps employees see their role in a company's broader success.

In this episode of Get Reworked, Ryppl Effect founder Joe Makston shares how his experience as an employee experience leader and head of learning and development shaped his approach to some hard leadership conversations.

"When you start to understand, oh, the customer implementation process that I just took somebody through, contributes to the department goal of whatever and contributes to that line of business and ultimately rolls up to we're supposed to book $500 million in this specific category, if I can understand that by closing that implementation, that work contributes to actually getting to the $500,000 — that is gold for an employee, they see the broader picture. It's leaders understanding when you're writing goals, when you're talking about performance, how to tie it to, frankly, the strategy and that breakdown between strategy and the tactical piece," said Joe.

Highlights of the conversation include:

  • Why now's the time to discuss how leadership is struggling.
  • How shortcomings in leadership development led to the ongoing management boom—bust cycles.
  • How management impacts culture, engagement and productivity.
  • Why he thinks being a manager and an individual contributor at the same time isn't a good idea.
  • How managers can give leadership a view into the day-to-day operations.

Plus, hosts Nidhi Madhavan and Siobhan Fagan talk with Joe about how organizations can identify who is right for management roles, why some people may need to be pushed to grow and the parallels he sees between being a pastor and being a leader. Listen in for more.

Have a suggestion, comment or topic for a future episode? Send it to [email protected].