Lessons in Lifespan Health

Michelle Keller is an assistant professor of gerontology and the Leonard and Sophie Davis Early Career Chair in Minority Aging at the USC Leonard Davis School. She spoke to us about her research focused on improving patient-clinician communication, medication management, and the identification of dementia in minority older adults. Here are highlights from our conversation.

On polypharmacy

“When it comes to older adults and medications, it's important to understand that while medications can be incredibly beneficial for treating various conditions, they can also present really unique risks in this population. Older adults often take multiple medications at the same time. This is what we call polypharmacy.”

“Older adults can be more sensitive to certain medications, they might experience side effects more intensely or even at lower doses than younger individuals. … This is particularly true for medications that affect our central nervous system, our brain, right? So, thinking about medications that are sedating or that have some sort of psychoactive effect. These medications, especially when they're combined together, can lead to things like confusion, dizziness and an increased risk of falls.”

On her study of interventions to address polypharmacy

“What we found in this study was that interventions to address polypharmacy can do a great job of reducing medications which are potentially harmful, identifying which medications people should be taking, improving the appropriateness of the medications people are taking, and reducing the total number of medications. So thinking about outcomes related to medications, what we have found is that it is really hard to change more downstream clinical outcomes, things like mortality, falls, hospitalizations, and emergency department visits. We did find that interventions that had multiple components; in other words, where a clinician is meeting face to face with a patient, reviewing their medications, reviewing all the chronic diseases that they have, along with their full patient history of what has happened to them in the past, those interventions tend to have a greater effect on mortality. So in other words, those types of interventions are reducing the risk of that someone actually dies.”

“We also found that falls decrease when patients fully stop potentially harmful medications. These may be medications where somebody is feeling very dizzy or that make people feel very dizzy or drowsy, medications that may control somebody's blood sugar a little bit too much… So, their blood pressure's a little too low and they may actually fall as a result of these medications. But what we found was that stopping medications such as benzodiazepines, which are often taken for sleep or anxiety, can take months. These types of medications can have withdrawal effects. And so it's really, really important for somebody to work very closely with a healthcare provider to slowly taper these medications down to try to reduce those withdrawal effects.”

“What we have found in working with other researchers and clinicians is that when patients team up with a healthcare provider, such as their primary care physician or clinical pharmacist who's embedded in the healthcare system, they really are able to stop taking some of these medications, and they feel a lot better. They feel much more energy, they're able to do the things that they really enjoy. They have a greater quality of life. But it's something that just takes time.”

On the Empower Intervention for benzodiazepines

“The typical recommendation for benzodiazepines is that they really should be taken short-term. These are medications that physicians typically recommend somebody take for a maximum of four weeks. What we have found in some of our research is that people are actually taking these for years, if not decades. And so stopping these medications can be quite challenging, and sometimes patients aren't fully convinced about why they should be stopping these medications. So, we took an intervention that started in Canada. It was developed by researchers in Quebec, and this is called the Empower Intervention. And what we did is we tailored it to a health system here in the US. The Empower Intervention is a really great brochure that contains some pretty striking facts about benzodiazepines.”

“To give you some examples of benzodiazepine, these are like your Xanax, your Ativan, your Klonopin; these are the medications that we're talking about here. These brochures highlighted some really interesting facts, such as the fact that they can be harmful or linked to hip fractures and car accidents, and they can make people feel very tired and weak. What we did for this intervention is we sent these brochures to about 300 people along with a letter from their primary care physician, emphasizing that these medications can be harmful if taken for too long and especially among older adults. So what we did for this study is we compared patients who had received these brochures to patients who did not receive them. So they're going on usual care. Their physicians may have mentioned something to them, this was our control group, right? We didn't send anything to this particular group.”

“We reviewed the medical records for both groups, and we looked at what kinds of medications they had been prescribed. And what we found is that patients who received the brochures were really activated. You know, when they received this messaging they would send messages in the patient portal to their physicians saying, ‘I didn't know that there were these risks of these medications. I would really like to come in and talk to you about them.’ They made appointments to start tapering down these medications. What we found was for every 10 brochures that we sent, one person completely stopped taking these medications, which is a really good return on investment. This is a simple intervention. It has now been done in some other health systems in the US, particularly the Veterans Affairs health system.”

On challenges in de-prescribing

“I think some of the challenges that physicians face in de-prescribing is that de-prescribing takes a lot of time. As we all know, our primary care visits are very short; physicians, particularly in the primary care setting, are really rushed through their visits. And so I think having some of these conversations can just be something that's challenging. I also think they're quite complex conversations to have. They may not have received the training, for example, on how to taper a medication in a safe way so that a patient does not feel withdrawal effects. And I do think that there is something about getting physician buy-in … they are concerned [that] if they bring it up, the patient may be angry with them; they may be upset. And so I think really showing physicians ways in which this can be brought up that are really framed around ‘how do we center the patient's health and quality of life’ – I think those are still questions that we as researchers are working on.”

On the role of caregivers

“It's really important for caregivers to be aware of the medications their loved ones are taking for many reasons. I think they can be amazing advocates in helping bring up potential side effects during doctor's visits. So, for example, if a caregiver is noticing that someone is feeling drowsy or doesn't have that much energy or is feeling dizzy, any sort of cognitive impairments such as those that may be seen in dementia, [they] may actually be a result of medication side effects. So, I think really becoming an advocate for somebody when seeing the doctor is one really important thing that caregivers can do.”

“Another area where caregivers can play a really important role is among people with dementia. People with dementia can have really some challenges in managing their medications. They may miss doses, they may take several medications twice, so they may have an overdose, or they may take the wrong medication altogether. So, caregivers can play really pivotal roles in helping somebody manage medication changes. There have been some early interventions looking at how to engage caregivers and persons with dementia. And some of the challenges that those researchers have seen is that there [is] often more than one person actually caring for somebody with dementia. And so, engaging that whole group of people who may be working with that person has been a real challenge.”

On challenges facing patients with language barriers

“There is research showing that patients with language barriers have a greater risk of being hospitalized or re-hospitalized because of some of the communication challenges that come with medication management. So, you can imagine that, for example, older adults and their caregivers with language barriers may have a difficult time understanding medication instructions, which can lead to improper use. So when and how to take medications, recognizing potential side effects, understanding the purpose of each medication. And on top of that, you can layer on things, like if somebody doesn't have a great understanding of the condition. We call that disease literacy, or they may have health literacy issues.”

“Right now, a mentee and I are working on this review of interventions that have been done specifically for patients with language barriers focused on improving medication management. And what we found was that interventions that really engaged people from communities with language barriers have been some of the most effective ways to really help people learn about which medications are working really well for them, how to improve medication adherence and other important outcomes. So, for example, an intervention that we found was researchers engaged folks in the community, co-created videos about medications in the community and why it was important to take them. And then when they actually distributed these interventions, they made sure that both in terms of the videos and some of the other educational materials that were handed out to folks that these really were very tailored both language-wise, literacy-wise, and culturally tailored to the communities that they were serving.”

On new dementia medications and disparities in the diagnosis of dementia

“We are learning that older Black and Latino adults tend to get diagnosed with dementia once the disease has progressed more. And what that means is that they may not have received some of the kind of services that may help them or their families. So, for example, they may not have received enough support to be able to plan for the rest of their lives, or their families may not necessarily have received caregiving support early on in disease progress.”

“I think in regard to these particular dementia medications, for example, if older adults are diagnosed with dementia at a place where they're no longer eligible to receive these medications, I think that'll be a really pretty serious health equity issue. So, I am really interested in how we make sure that people are getting diagnosed in time to make them eligible for really potentially beneficial treatments that may help them down the road.”

On effective strategies for de-prescribing

“The most effective strategies that we see de-prescribing these medications is offering something else. So, for example, some of the most evidence for insomnia really exists around the use of using cognitive behavioral therapy. There's also been well-done systematic reviews that have found evidence that music or acupuncture may help people with insomnia. … I think one thing that's very important to think about when we de-prescribe medications is what else can we offer people? We're not just leaving people in the lurch and saying, ‘We're taking this away and we're leaving you with nothing.’ We're actually able to offer them some non-pharmacological options as well.”

Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):

One thing that's very important to think about when we de-prescribe medications is: what else can we offer people? We're not just leaving people in the lurch and saying, we're taking this away and we're leaving you with nothing. We're actually able to offer them some non-pharmacological options as well

Speaker 2 (00:17):

From the USC Leonard Davis School of Gerontology, this is Lessons in Lifespan Health, a podcast about the science and scientists improving how we live and age. I'm Orli Belman, Chief Communications Officer. On today's episode: how Professor Michelle Keller is working with older adults, caregivers and clinicians to manage the use and potential overuse of high risk medications. Michelle Keller is an Assistant Professor of Gerontology and the Leonard and Sophie Davis Early Career Chair in Minority Aging at the USC Leonard Davis School. Her research is focused on improving patient-clinician communication, medication management, and the identification of dementia in minority older adults. Hi, Michelle. Welcome and thank you for joining us today.

Speaker 1 (01:06):

Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:08):

I wanna start by asking you to talk about older adults and medications. We can all understand why medications are beneficial, but when it comes to older adults, what are some of the ways they can be problematic?

Speaker 1 (01:19):

Absolutely. So when it comes to older adults and medications, it's important to understand that while medications can be incredibly beneficial for treating various conditions, they can also present really unique risks in this population. So older adults often take multiple medications at the same time. This is what we call polypharmacy. Polypharmacy can increase the risk of drug interactions, right? So I like to think of the example of a suitcase, right? So imagine that you are packing up, getting ready to go to a trip. You start putting one thing into the suitcase, gets a little heavy, but you can manage it, right? You're suddenly adding more and more things and the suitcase is getting heavier and heavier to the point where you actually throw out your back at the airport, right? This is really what I think of when our bodies are kind of processing multiple medications at once with the additional challenge that some of these drugs may actually interact with one another.

Speaker 1 (02:15):

This is why it's so important for patients to talk to their doctors about the medications they're taking and the potential risks of each medication as people get older. I think one thing that people don't often think about is that when clinical trials are being done, often many clinical trials have excluded older adults. So we don't always have a great sense of how these medications work in older adult populations. And on top of that, they may exclude people with chronic conditions who are already taking a variety of other medications. And so as a result, what is happening now is that we have many people who are taking these medications, and it hasn't been well tested in these populations. It hasn't really been, you know, we don't have a clear sense of what is happening when all of these medications are being taken together. So polypharmacy can really increase the risk of drug interactions.

Speaker 1 (03:09):

As I was saying, when one medication affects another, and this can lead to a variety of adverse effects. So for example, if someone is taking multiple medications that make you feel drowsy or sleepy when you stack them on top of each other–thinking again about that suitcase, that can lead someone to have an increased risk of falls, potentially a fracture resulting from those falls, car accidents if they're feeling very drowsy or dizzy and other medications can increase our risk of internal bleeding. Another thing that's really important to think about for older adults is that as we get older, our bodies undergo various changes that can alter how our medications are absorbed, distributed, and actually excreted from the body. So for example, kidney and liver function can really decline with age. And so that can actually affect how well we process the drugs through our body.

Speaker 1 (04:05):

What that means is that drugs may stay in our bodies for longer periods of time leading to more side effects or adverse effects. The last thing I really wanted to bring up is this idea of how things change as we get older. So we maybe have been taking a medication for many years, but as we get older because of the changes that are happening within our body, some medications, which were fine for us when we were younger, are now gonna lead to more serious adverse effects now that we're older. So older adults can be more sensitive to certain medications, so they might experience side effects more intensely or even at lower doses than younger individuals. They might feel the effects. So this is particularly true for medications that affect our central nervous system, our brain, right? So thinking about medications that are sedating or that have some sort of psychoactive effect.

Speaker 1 (05:04):

These medications, especially when they're combined together, can lead to things like confusion, dizziness, and an increased risk of falls. One medication which people often take to help them sleep is Benadryl or Tylenol PM. This medication is actually a drug that's really recommended to avoid in older adults because it can be very sedating, making people feel very drowsy throughout the day. And it actually also has the effects on the brain and has been associated with a higher increased risk of dementia. So these are medications that again, we don't think of as generally harmful, but again, in an older person might really be an issue.

Speaker 2 (05:46):

That's a really helpful example 'cause that's just an over the counter medication that anyone can get, even without a doctor. You recently published two papers looking at interventions for addressing polypharmacy. The first one was a review of several studies. What did you learn in that review about the effectiveness or not of programs that are designed to reduce harmful polypharmacy?

Speaker 1 (06:08):

So we reviewed several systematic reviews. These are collections, as you mentioned, of numerous studies to understand how well interventions to address polypharmacy are working. Many of these interventions include a process called de-prescribing, which is the process of systematically reducing or stopping medications that may no longer be beneficial or might be causing harm, particularly in older adults. The goal of deprescribing is to optimize an individual's medication regimen to improve their overall health and quality of life. What we found in this study was that interventions to address polypharmacy can do a great job of reducing medications which are potentially harmful, identifying which medications people should be taking, improving the appropriateness of the medications people are taking, and reducing the total number of medications. So thinking about outcomes related to medications, what we have found is that it is really hard to change more downstream clinical outcomes.

Speaker 1 (07:11):

Things like mortality falls, hospitalizations, and emergency department visits. We did find that interventions that had multiple components, in other words where a clinician is meeting face-to-face with a patient, reviewing their medications, reviewing all the chronic diseases that they have along with their full patient history of what has happened to them in the past, those interventions tend to have a greater effect on mortality. So in other words, those types of interventions are reducing the risk that someone actually dies. We also found that falls decrease when patients fully stop potentially harmful medications. So these may be medications that make people feel very dizzy or drowsy medications that may control somebody's blood sugar a little bit too much and so they're actually feeling very low blood sugar or medications where their blood pressure is overly controlled. So their blood pressure's a little too low, and they may actually fall as a result of these medications.

Speaker 1 (08:12):

But what we found was that stopping medications such as benzodiazepines, which are often taken for sleep or anxiety, can take months. These types of medications can have withdrawal effects. And so it's really, really important for somebody to work very closely with a healthcare provider to slowly taper these medications down, to try to reduce those withdrawal effects. And because it takes so long to fully stop these medications, it's hard for studies to really find an effect unless they're following that person for a long period of time, which studies often don't. And so that's one of the challenges that we've seen in the research is that studies haven't followed people for enough time. Or at the time that they're measuring some of these clinical outcomes, not enough time has gone by to really see the full effects. So what we have found in working with other researchers and clinicians is that when patients team up with a healthcare provider such as their primary care physician or clinical pharmacist who's embedded in the healthcare system, they really are able to stop taking some of these medications and they feel a lot better. They feel much more energy, they're able to do the things that they really enjoy. They have a greater quality of life, but it's something that just takes time.

Speaker 2 (09:28):

And I imagine it's something you have to balance when someone really might need a medication to treat something and then managing the side effects. That's really interesting. I know the second study looked at a particular intervention and this was the use of educational materials for benzodiazepines. What led you to explore this area and what did you find?

Speaker 1 (09:49):

Great question. So benzodiazepines are, as I mentioned earlier, medications that are often used for sleep or anxiety. The typical recommendation for benzodiazepines is that they really should be taken short term. These are medications that, you know, physicians typically recommend somebody take for a maximum of four weeks. What we have found in some of our research is that people are actually taking these for years, if not decades. And so stopping these medications can be quite challenging and sometimes patients aren't fully convinced about why they should be stopping these medications. So we took an intervention that started in Canada. It was developed by researchers in Canada, in Quebec, and this is called the Empower Intervention. And what we did is we tailored it to a health system here in the US. The Empower Intervention is a really great brochure that contains some pretty striking facts about benzodiazepines.

Speaker 1 (10:45):

To give you some examples of benzodiazepine, these are like your Xanax, your Ativan, your Klonopin. These are the medications that we're talking about here. These brochures highlighted some really interesting facts such as the fact that they can be harmful or linked to hip fractures and car accidents and they can make people feel very tired and weak. What we did for this intervention is we sent these brochures to about 300 people along with a letter from their primary care physician, emphasizing that these medications can be harmful if taken for too long and especially among older adults. So what we did for this study is we compared patients who had received these brochures to patients who did not receive them. So kind of they're going on their usual care, their physicians may have mentioned something to them. This was our control group, right? We didn't send anything to this particular group.

Speaker 1 (11:40):

We reviewed the medical records for both groups and we looked at what kinds of medications they had been prescribed. And what we found is that patients who received the brochures were really activated. You know, when they received this messaging, they would send messages in the patient portal to their physicians saying, I didn't know that there were these risks of these medications. I would really like to come in and talk to you about them. They made appointments to start tapering down these medications. What we found was for every 10 brochures that we sent, one person completely stopped taking these medications, which is a really good return on investment. This is a simple intervention. It has now been done in some other health systems in the US, particularly the Veterans Affairs health system. And you know, groups have found similar effects. We also found that the probability that someone in the intervention group completely stopped their medications was about 10% greater compared to the group that did not get the brochure.

Speaker 1 (12:41):

So again, you know, for a cheap simple intervention, we were pretty excited about these results. What's been really interesting is I just came back from two conferences, the US De-Prescribing Research Network and the Society for General Internal Medicine Annual Meeting. And we find that other researchers are also finding that engaging patients in reducing these potentially harmful medications is actually one of the most effective forms of deprescribing. There have been plenty of studies where researchers have actually engaged physicians and those have not been as successful. So what I'm really excited about in terms of thinking about future interventions is, how do we really engage patients in learning about what are the best options for them to manage their health?

Speaker 2 (13:28):

So you just said that physicians, it's been a little harder to see change in their prescribing behaviors. What do we know about ways they can introduce the idea of reducing or stopping a medication?

Speaker 1 (13:39):

Yeah, I think it's a great question. I think communicating when, how and why a medication should be reduced or stopped can be really challenging. What researchers have found is that when physicians focus on improving a patient's quality of life, that is what is most effective. So for example, thinking about stopping or reducing certain medications can give somebody more energy, help them move around better, they're not feeling as unsteady on their feet or dizzy. They can think more clearly because they're no longer feeling feelings of brain fog or sleepiness or drowsiness. I think these can be some really effective messages. I think some of the challenges that physicians face in de-prescribing is that de-prescribing takes a lot of time. As we all know, our primary care visits are very short. Physicians, particularly in the primary care setting, are really rushed through their visits. And so I think having some of these conversations can just be something that's challenging.

Speaker 1 (14:41):

I also think they're quite complex conversations to have. They may not have received the training, for example, on how to taper a medication in a safe way so that a patient does not feel withdrawal effects. And I do think that there is something about getting physician buy-in, in terms of, they are concerned about, you know, if they bring it up, the patient may be angry with them, they may be upset. And so I think really showing physicians ways in which this can be brought up that's really framed around, how do we center the patient's health and quality of life? I think those are are still questions that we as researchers are working on.

Speaker 2 (15:17):

We've talked about physicians and obviously patients themselves. How about caregivers? What role can they play in helping address some of these issues? And are there interventions that especially aim to include them?

Speaker 1 (15:28):

Yeah, great question. I think it's really important for caregivers to be aware of the medications their loved ones are taking. For many reasons. I think they can be amazing advocates in helping bring up potential side effects during doctor's visits. So for example, if a caregiver is noticing that someone is feeling drowsy or doesn't have that much energy or is feeling dizzy, any sort of cognitive impairments, right? So, such as those that may be seen in dementia, may actually be a result of medication side effects. So I think really becoming an advocate for somebody when seeing the doctor is one really important thing that caregivers can do. Another area where caregivers can play a really important role is among people with dementia. People with dementia can have some challenges in managing their medications. They may miss doses, they may take several medications twice, so they may have an overdose or they may take the wrong medication altogether. So caregivers can play really pivotal roles in helping somebody manage medication changes. There have been some early interventions looking at how to engage caregivers and persons with dementia. And some of the challenges that those researchers have seen is that there are often more than one person actually caring for somebody with dementia. And so engaging that whole group of people who may be working with that person has been a real challenge.

Speaker 2 (16:54):

Are there particular challenges faciing under-resourced communities or populations with language barriers? I imagine some of this communication is even harder in these cases. What do you think needs to be done in these areas?

Speaker 1 (17:09):

Absolutely. There is research showing that patients with language barriers have a greater risk of being hospitalized or rehospitalized because of some of the communication challenges that come with medication management. So you can imagine that for example, you know, older adults and their caregivers with language barriers may have a difficult time understanding medication instructions, which can lead to improper use. So when and how to take medications, recognizing potential side effects, understanding the purpose of each medication. And on top of that, you can layer on things like, you know, if somebody doesn't have a great understanding of the condition, right? So we call that disease literacy. Or they may have health literacy issues, or on top of that, we may even have literacy concerns where the person does not know how to read or has a limited ability to read. So layering on all these challenges can really make it difficult to both manage your medications and communicate with physicians about their concerns or side effects regarding medications.

Speaker 1 (18:14):

Right now, mentee and I are working on this review of interventions that have been done specifically for patients with language barriers focused on improving medication management. And what we found was that interventions that really engaged people from communities with language barriers have been some of the most effective ways to really help people learn about which medications are working really well for them, how to improve medication adherence and other important outcomes. So for example, an intervention that we found was researchers engaged folks in the community. They co-created videos about medications in the community and why it was important to take them. And then when they actually distributed these interventions, they made sure that both in terms of the videos and some of the other educational materials that were handed out to folks, that these really were very tailored both language wise, literacy wise, and culturally tailored to the communities that they were serving.

Speaker 2 (19:16):

Another area I wanna touch on is your work improving doctor patient communication. And I'm curious if your background as a newspaper reporter has informed your research in this area, and what are some of the ways that patients lose out when communication is not clear?

Speaker 1 (19:32):

So I think a lot about how we can help clinicians communicate complex information about medications and other treatments in simple, accessible ways. Which is really something that I aimed to do as a reporter, right? When I worked as a reporter, oftentimes I would take studies from medical journals and I would break them down in a way that was really easy and accessible for the public to read. And so that is really something that I'm very interested in. How do we help clinicians do the same thing? Or if we're designing interventions for patients, how do we do something similar? How do we make the risks and benefits of medications very clear to people so that they're able to make the best decisions about those for their health? So one area that I'm really interested in is these new medications for dementia that have come out, which are the anti amyloid medications. These medications have some pretty potentially serious side effects such as brain bleeding and swelling. And I'm working on a research proposal thinking about, how do we best present these medications to patients in a way that they feel like they're able to make the best decisions for themselves and their loved ones? I think it'd be really critical, particularly in terms of health equity for people to have a very good sense of how these medications can potentially help but also understand the serious risks associated with the new dementia medications.

Speaker 2 (21:02):

And speaking of dementia, I think you've also looked at the diagnosis of dementia and whether or not there's differences in minority populations. Is that something you can tell us a little bit about?

Speaker 1 (21:14):

Absolutely. So that is an area of research that I'm actually just starting to get into because what we are learning is that older black and Latino adults tend to get diagnosed with dementia once the disease has progressed more. And what that means is that they may not have received some of the services that may help them or their families. So for example, they may not have received enough support to be able to plan for the rest of their lives, or their families may not necessarily have received caregiving support early on in disease progress. I think in regards to these particular dementia medications, for example, if older adults are diagnosed with dementia at a place where they're no longer eligible to receive these medications, I think that'll be a really pretty serious health equity issue. So I am really interested in, how do we make sure that people are getting diagnosed in time to make them eligible for really potentially beneficial treatments that may help them down the road? So I'm thinking about how do we train physicians who are working in under-resourced settings, which may serve large proportions of black and Latino older adults, how to diagnose dementia in a primary care setting, and working with some colleagues in the Los Angeles Department of Health Services on how we can think about making physicians feel more confident, their diagnosis of dementia among older adults.

Speaker 2 (22:40):

And I wanna go back to sleep and anxiety because I know that's something that affects so many people at all ages. If these interventions are successful and people are able to stop taking some of these medications, are there strategies or interventions that we know might work for helping them with the initial conditions they were struggling with to begin with?

Speaker 1 (23:01):

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really good question because sleep and anxiety are things that can really affect somebody's quality of life and functioning, right? The most effective strategies that we see de-prescribing these medications is offering something else. So for example, some of the most evidence for insomnia really exists around using cognitive behavioral therapy. There's also been really well done systematic reviews that have found evidence that music or acupuncture may help people with insomnia. So I think one thing that's very important to think about when we de-prescribe medications is what else can we offer people? We're not just leaving people in the lurch and saying, we're taking this away and we're leaving you with nothing. We're actually able to offer them some non-pharmacological options as well.

Speaker 2 (23:48):

That's a really helpful note to end on. Thank you for joining us, and I know that people are really gonna benefit from learning about all you've been working on and all your work that's gonna continue in the future.

Speaker 1 (23:59):

Thank you so much for having me today. It's been a real pleasure.

Speaker 2 (24:02):

That wraps up this lesson in Lifespan Health. Thanks to Professor Michelle Keller for her time and expertise and to all of you for choosing to listen. Join us next time for another Lesson in Lifespan Health, and please subscribe to our [email protected]. Lessons in Lifespan Health is supported by the Ney Center for Healthspan Science.