Oct 14 2024 51 mins 1
Bill Hendricks:
Well, hello and welcome to The Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. My name is Bill Hendricks. I'm the executive director for Christian leadership at the Hendricks Center. Years ago, I made friends with a gentleman who had become quite successful as an entrepreneur. In fact, by the time I met him, he was about 40 years old, and he told me that he had met all of his entrepreneurial goals, which means that he had made an incredible amount of money, but he was making more money by the day.
And he began to realize that his faith needed to inform what he did with these resources that were coming his way. And he realized that simply spending them on himself was not only not a good thing to do, but frankly impossible. I remember one day he said to me, "Bill, I have more money now that I'm responsible for than I could spend in about five lifetimes."
And so what he decided to do was to take the money that he estimated he and his family would need for the rest of their lives to live on. And as a cushion, he doubled it and he set that aside and decided, "That's what we're going to live on." And then he had this pile of resources left, which continued to grow as his business continued to pump profits and revenue and income into it, which created for him, you could call it a challenge, you could call it a problem, you could call it an opportunity, but it was the question of: how am I going to steward these resources, particularly in light of the Kingdom? And that's what we want to talk about on today's Table podcast is, what do Wealthy Christians do with their money? What have they done traditionally with that? And more recently, what are some of the trends that Christians who do what we call philanthropy, giving considerable amounts of money to Kingdom work, what are some of the trends of how they're doing that, what they're giving to, why they're giving, and so forth?
We have two eminent experts to help us with this topic today. One who's a long-time friend of Dallas Seminary. David Wills, actually a DTS grad. He is the president Emeritus of the National Christian Foundation, which as its name implies, is a resource that helps Christians direct their funds to causes and people that they want to get behind financially. In addition, we have Josh Kwan, who is the CEO of what's called The Gathering, which is a learning community of wealthy Christians who are doing philanthropy and trying to help them again, steward their resources in a Christ-like way.
I should also point out that Josh is the co-founder of Praxis, which is an organization on the West Coast designed to get behind entrepreneurs who are people of faith and do what we call redemptive entrepreneurship. And what a wonderful background to do the work that you're doing now at The Gathering, Josh. So David, Josh, welcome to the Table podcast. Thanks for being with us today.
Josh Kwan:
Thank you.
David Wills:
Honored to be with you.
Bill Hendricks:
Well, great. I guess, I should ask first you, David, because you've got quite a history now in working in this field. I'm just curious how you got into working with people that are doing philanthropy in the first place.
David Wills:
Well, I got into it, I was practicing law in Dallas after I finished law school and going to Dallas Seminary at night for fun. And I met a person that really had a half-time experience. He mentioned Bob Buford and he shared his story with me. And I guess about a year later, he became my mentor. That was in 1992, and we moved our family to St. Simon's Island for me to be apprenticed by him in this work. And ooh, I can get emotional. He is still my mentor to this day. We were on an hour-long phone call this morning with a high net worth Christian helping them think through their generosity. And so I've been very, very blessed to have someone to walk with me because I'm pretty weak. On multiple occasions, I thought I should turn around and go back home to Texas. And he helped me stay the course. And so this is what I've been doing for a long time. It's been a privilege.
Bill Hendricks:
And I should add have become a mentor to others now, thanks to the experience and the knowledge that you now have. Josh, you've ended up here at The Gathering, but tell us a little bit about how you got into working with high net worth Christians and your journey there.
Josh Kwan:
Yeah, thanks, Bill. I would count myself as one of those mentees of David Wills. And I do remember this because my first professional job in the world of philanthropy was with a family foundation, started by David and Bonnie Weekly in Houston, Texas. And I had no qualifications for getting this job. And so when David and Bonnie took a chance on me, they said, "Well, we're going to take this risk, but we'd better send you to spend time with people who know what they're doing." And one of the people they sent me to was David, and he also sent me to this community called The Gathering to Learn and to hear the kinds of questions that were being asked about stewardship.
And so I've had the privilege of attending The Gathering as a participant meeting David. I have this picture of us from 2007, my very first time there. And so I start just learning through osmosis, traveling, attending conferences and hearing just lots of families who are asking similar questions in life about how to both avoid pitfalls. And then where do you find joy in aligning what we're doing in obedience to God's word in God's prompting.
Bill Hendricks:
Yeah. Well, since we brought his name up again, let me mention Bob Buford. My own personal history with him includes the fact that back in the mid-90s and I had a consulting practice, he bought about 80% of my time for a year and a half, two work on a project we called the Social Entrepreneurs initiative. And we'll get into this pretty quickly here in this session, but at the time, nobody had really thought about bringing what might be called a venture capitalist investment banking model to philanthropy. Up to that point, it had pretty much been: here's a need you feel drawn to that need. You write a check, you send the check and they take it from there.
But there was a new way of looking at philanthropy through much more of an entrepreneurial lens. And the reason we called it the Social Entrepreneurs Network is that thanks to people like Peter Drucker, Bob had noticed that at the heart of all of these really innovative nonprofits and social sector projects, there always seemed to be an entrepreneur who brought the energy, the vision, the leadership to the project.
And what they really needed was not just money. They needed to get networks behind them and wisdom behind them. And so he was beginning to see that this was probably the better way to go, because if you just write a check, the person may or may not know how to invest that well and use it well. Whereas if you could come around that entrepreneur with others who were in the game with them to help them with best practice and meeting people and other kinds of business help, you could take something that was in the social sector and actually make it successful and work and actually move the needle in some of these areas that entrepreneurs were working in the inner city and in education and in the church and in other sectors.
And it was a fun time because with Bob, I got to meet lots of people that were very, very bright, but everybody was working on this new way of doing philanthropy. Well, here we are all these years later, and it seems like that way of doing philanthropy has largely taken hold, or at least to a large sector of the philanthropic movement. You guys are on the cutting edge of that sort of thing. I wanted to hear straight from you, how would you characterize the way that people are doing philanthropy now, and what's been learned over the last 20, 25 years?
Josh Kwan:
Why don't you go first, David? I think you've seen a little bit more of the 25 than I have.
David Wills:
That hurts. That hurts. Wow, that's a great question. There are several, I would say significant frameworks that have developed over the past 20 years that we're always… Nothing's new under the sun, but have become, I'd say more intentional. One of the frameworks that I think really is… And this is very peer related, is that there are three questions. Thinking of the gentleman that you used at the beginning and his example, there's three questions that he is asking, as all of us are asking on our journeys of generosity: why should I be generous? How do I do that? Where should we give? Those are the three. Why, how, where.
And I believe that the church has become more intentional about helping people that have affluence continually get better and better at asking those questions and usually in a peer-oriented environment. And so, there are even entities that have been raised up to help folks deal with process. These three questions, a lot of what you're talking about is what we would call where question issues. The collective impact, collaborative nature of giving with friends and peers. That's one that has become much more significant as time has gone on. But really in all three of those venues, all three of those questions, we have seen a lot of collaboration and a lot of intentionality, and it's dramatically changed how people do their giving.
Bill Hendricks:
Josh, what are you seeing over there at The Gathering?
Josh Kwan:
Yeah, I think I would add to what David discussed as maybe a broadening of our understanding of what it means to steward a resource. So I think traditionally, it's been financial wealth, so it's how much money can I write as a check to support a ministry? And I think over time, and this is true in the secular world as well as in the Christian space, it's like, well, I also have time and I have relationships and I have a reputation and I have experience building a company or leading a team, or growing into a new market, or leading a board of directors. And these are all skills that can be widely applied to most organizations, including churches and nonprofit organizations. And so if you think about stewarding wealth and resources and forms of capital, those forms of capital include time and talent in addition to treasure.
So that's one long-term trend over the last few decades of people saying it's not just giving out of one pocket, it's multiple pockets including my endowment or the private wealth that I hold, not just my 10% or something slightly above that. So there's application of investment capital, and then there's the multiplication of powering up your donation with your time and getting to know the leadership team and knowing the inner workings of an impact model, and then making introductions for those leaders to your networks and thinking of nodes of connections into relationship-building, which multiplies the impact of the organization that you're trying to support. So I think overall is just a widening of the creative imagination for what you may pour towards a cause or an issue that you care about.
Bill Hendricks:
Well, I love that, Josh, because it takes it so far beyond just the money part. I mean the money part's important, but you're describing really bringing the whole of who you are to the, I'll call it an investment of your resources, which are beyond just the money. And Jesus says, "Where your treasure is, your heart will be also." And yes, we need to bring the money, but so much more it sounds like we need to bring our heart to whatever giving we're doing is what I'm hearing you say.
David Wills:
Yeah, I'll just add to that. It used to be in the old days, so to speak, which Josh has no recollection of because he was not even there, is that people used to think about generosity with regards to their money and they did it alone. That was just the way it worked. In fact, it was even structured like that. And I have another mentor, a DTS grad named Ken Boa, who's in Atlanta, who's written about this. And Josh, he says, "There are five things that God gives us to steward. Everyone. They are the time, talent, and treasure," and he says, "Truths and relationships." So every day we are given these five things and then we're able to steward them. And then when you do that with others, well it's a powerful, powerful thing. So that's great.
Bill Hendricks:
I don't know if this arises to the level of a distinction, but sort of two terms that are sort of floating together here. One is donation, one is investment. I'm just curious how you two guys see each of those categories. Josh, why don't you go ahead?
Josh Kwan:
Okay. Yeah, so from a definition standpoint, I would say the donation, the giving is the philanthropic grant-making where you can get a tax deduction on that gift. And then on the investment side, and I know that sometimes it's used interchangeably because you're putting some resource and then hoping it grows, but in this case, the investment side would be for-profit capital as I think about it. And you're not going to get a tax deduction necessarily on a for-profit investment. Now there's some newer vehicles in which some of those things, they're fungible. We're now seeing a meshing of financial capital being deployed towards causes, and organizations and individuals thinking of the financial capital as a more fungible resource.
But primarily you're giving one pocket, you get one tax treatment, and then your investment capital is a different… And I think where it comes together, you mentioned social enterprise or social entrepreneurship, is a concept that you can actually make money doing good, or you can make some amount of capital that can be sustainable, so you don't need any more philanthropic capital to sustain the work, to sustain the impact. And I think that's maybe a more novel in the last couple of decades of thinking about; it doesn't always have to be 100% charitable charity supported, but if you can get some revenue through sales or through… Maybe the very good that you do can create some revenue that will help sustain and scale impact.
Bill Hendricks:
David, your thoughts on donations versus investments?
David Wills:
No, I concur with what Josh said, and I think that sometimes they can be completely interchanged. It really is kind of a mindset. Some people just think in terms of making charitable contributions or donations and other people think of making investments and sometimes they're doing the exact same thing. It's kind of like the difference between seeing problems and seeing opportunities,
Just different people just can come across the same thing and see it in a different light With our financial resources. When it comes to investing or contributing, that usually happens to three… I'm kind of a framework fanatic, so I apologize for that. There's three typical locations that those funds go. They go to people, they go to organizations or they go to companies. That's where you invest your capital. And the people could be your very own family, or it could be someone in need that just needs resources. And it may not be a donation where you can get a deduction, but the Lord brings that need before you and he asks you to meet that need. That may very well end up being some kind of an investment. You don't know. And then there's traditional investments, and that's something that's dramatically increased with regards to using even charitable dollars to invest in for-profit efforts that are having a kingdom impact.
It's growing rapidly and it's become… We used to just think of how are you going to make an impact for the kingdom? Well, who are you going to give to? Are you going to give to your church? Are you going to give to a seminary? Are you going to give to a charitable organization? And that thinking is rapidly changing and adding what Josh described as the impact-investing opportunities because we're seeing more and more companies that are doing extraordinary evangelism and discipleship, for example, or extraordinary efforts in gaining employment so people can have the means to survive. So it's kind of become kaleidoscopic, if you will. Giving used to be like just looking through a peephole, and now it is just incredible. So it's much more fun than it used to be. I'll just say that.
Bill Hendricks:
Yeah. I wanted to drill down on that whole movement of impact investing, which I certainly have seen that, David, that's really come on strong certainly in the last five to 10 years. And it seems to be growing the idea that you actually get behind often for-profit ventures that are doing some kind of social good or Kingdom good. You do get a return in your investment. It may or may not be the 20X or the 50X that you would've gotten with perhaps other kinds of investments, but that's not really why you're in that game as much. Yes, you do want to return on the investment, you want to make it sustainable, but you also see that the yield has this impact value that you're changing lives, changing communities, et cetera. Where do you think that came… Where did that start from? What was the origin of that?
David Wills:
Well, I think it's always… Oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Josh.
Josh Kwan:
I would say if you take a look at historically, the church has actually been involved in businesses that throw profit that are reinvested for centuries. Some of the monks who created goods to sell in the marketplace that would then fund their ministry work. So I would say this is a very old story that has maybe taken on some new dimensions. I think maybe the pendulum sometimes swings back and forth of when is it more popular to focus on philanthropy, when is it more popular to focus on investments? And I think we're in a period of time where we're moving towards investments or a blended model of philanthropy plus investments towards some common goal.
And so it's been around for a long, long time. And I think one of the beauties of thinking about the investment model is that let's say you put in a million dollars into a business. That million dollars can then generate a million dollars year over year over year that could be producing impact, as opposed to if you give it away to charity, that million dollars is gone permanently.
Now, there are some concerns if all you focus on is the investment side. Because there are some causes and some issues where your return is just going to be zero because the cause… The intervention of the model necessitates just pure charity. An example would be disaster relief, right? You're trying to feed somebody who has no shelter, no clothing, no food. You can't make an investment return on supporting that cause. But there are other things that at the risk of sharing a story that I was involved in, but I think this example is relevant, where I helped start an organization called Abide. And this was a mobile app. One of the things that we built as a team of software developers was a mobile app to help people pray and meditate.
And it was a subscription model. So there was a free version where everyone can just use your app and be able to pray the scriptures. And then there was a premium model where people paid a subscription, a small monthly fee to unlock extra content. And those fees helped pay for the developers on the team, the designers on the team, the sound engineers, and the people who are creating the content. And so, in that sense, we had a free model for people to use, and then those who really enjoyed it could fund the growth and the salaries for those who were building the product.
And there was no charitable dollars involved. It was primarily driven by investment capital. And then when we sold the business, we were able to provide a profitable return for investors. So in that sense, you can measure impact by gosh, in terms of outputs, the number of hours that were prayed on the app, the kind of spiritual growth and maturity that was happening virtually through an app. And then people thought about their investment by saying, "Oh, I helped facilitate all this prayer and I got a profitable return." That's I think some of the ingenuity and creativity that's being unleashed right now. New ways of thinking about capital.
Bill Hendricks:
Is this a fairly American phenomenon or are you seeing this happen elsewhere around the globe? This impact investment model.
David Wills:
Oh, yeah. We're seeing it all over the world and growing rapidly all over the world. Concepts like what Josh just described, those types of things are happening in places all over the world, and it's amazing to see. And so it's really back to that theme of a holistic mindset of what God has blessed people with. And if they're entrepreneurs and they are abiding in Christ and they want to build these companies that have clearly redemptive aspects to them that go to the heart of the gospel. And it's fun. There's organizations that are even now coming up for the purpose of helping those that have that kind of mindset be faith-driven in the way they serve as entrepreneurs and be faith-driven in the way if their investors invest.
Thousands of people. And this is incredibly global. Some of the most exciting things in this are actually happening in Africa, not in the United States. And so everywhere you go, everywhere we go, now we're seeing this and there are more and more infrastructures coming around it, answering the how question. Josh mentioned an example of that. How did Abide do what they did? Well, they did it on a for-profit model with investment capital as opposed to charitable capital. And it's becoming a very mix and match thing at this point where there's tremendous variety and different ways that you can accomplish the same things.
Josh Kwan:
And I think it's helpful to remember that there are parts of the American legal system, the American tax law, the American cultural way of practicing Christianity. Those things are not necessarily found in scripture. And so countries outside of the United States don't necessarily have the expectations or baggage or whatever we might call it when it comes to thinking about the integration of faith and work, or thinking about deployment of capital and where they see just massive opportunity. There aren't some of these hang-ups that we may encounter in the United States when it comes to thinking about we started business. And it's a faith driven business.
Bill Hendricks:
Well, I appreciate you bringing up-
David Wills:
I'll push-
Bill Hendricks:
Go ahead.
David Wills:
Yeah, I'm going to push that one step further, because there are actually places outside of the US that make it very difficult to do traditional charitable giving, but make it very easy to do redemptive entrepreneurship. We're actually very blessed here in the US, because there's incentives for both. But in some places, if you want to reach people without a doubt, the most effective and cost-effective way to do so is through redemptive businesses.
Bill Hendricks:
Well, thanks for bringing that term up; redemptive business. We also use the term redemptive entrepreneurship. Flesh that out. What do we mean by that term? I think I know, but I would like our listener to be able to know what you're talking about there.
Josh Kwan:
Yeah. Well, when David said there's nothing new under the sun, well, redemption and the concept of something that being redemptive, we point to scripture for that. And it's the notion that in entrepreneurship, in a fallen world, the people who are starting businesses can be incentivized to exploit the system and exploit vulnerable people or exploit vulnerable supply chains to maximize profit. And of course, most people would agree that's a terrible way to do business. There's an ethical way, right? Let's play within the rules of morality or maybe legal structures and let's abide by the rules. Okay, that's fine. And maybe in some of those instances, I win and you win and we all win, and one plus one equals three, right? And I think the concept of redemptive business or redemptive entrepreneurship might push that even further, which is to say, how might I have an opportunity to sacrifice something in order for someone else to win?
And that's the notion of redemptive entrepreneurship is to take… Maybe there's an element in an industry, maybe let's call it a retail.Clothing retail. There's something harmful about how that industry practices. What are the norms of that industry in exploiting workers? Well, what if you started a fashion label that actually went in the opposite direction and went above and beyond what was called for? And to think about maybe you're hiring practices and you're hiring people who are coming out of incarceration, or you're willing to pay more for higher quality raw materials? Those kinds of practices would cast the venture and the purpose of the products and service that you put into the world in a different light.
This is to say we're trying to point people towards a different way of doing business that may be infused by scripture that are motivated by our love for Jesus Christ and our love for neighbor. And so if those principles can be baked into the very founding of the business, we would say, how do we help entrepreneurs live out their faith through their ventures?
Bill Hendricks:
And as I listened to that description, Josh, I think what I'm hearing is this is not a prosperity gospel. This is not; oh, if I run my business in certain ways, then God will be pleased with me, and as a result, He'll bless my business and I'll get richer and I'll be a good boy before God. It's actually quite different. It's saying: God has been so generous in his grace to me. I want to extend that grace in the way that I do business and that I help the world and its people flourish.
Josh Kwan:
That's right, Bill. And if anything, it's going to be even harder, because I think you've raised the bar for the degree of difficulty in pursuing traditional measures of success for this business. But it's worthwhile because that one business has the opportunity to transform the industry by setting a different standard, by setting a different norm. And you don't even have to say it's a Christian or a biblical norm. By being successful and doing it in a different way or counter-cultural way, you raise attention from your peers, from your competitors, from your supply chain, and it's going to make a splash in the marketplace. And hopefully that's going to give people an opportunity to say why we are motivated to do it this way.
And the sacrificial nature really is so compelling, and it's what makes Jesus so compelling. He had everything, he gave it away on our behalf. Well, how can we replicate something similar in the marketplace?
Bill Hendricks:
Well, and we've been talking here for a minute about ventures, particularly outside the U.S., and that brings up a trend that I've seen that's again, grown significantly over the last number of years. What we call micro-lending. The idea that you give a person in a very disadvantaged situation, 50, $100, you loan to them to go buy a sewing machine, say, and next thing you know, this person's creating clothing and then able to sell it in the marketplace. And she and her family are now seeing a degree of flourishing, and also paying that loan back and seeing their lives thrive as a result of opportunity that came their way. Do you guys deal with any of that? The micro-lending arm?
David Wills:
Certainly. It's become a very, very effective method of evangelism and discipleship, and it's all over the world. And so it's a natural redemptive business when it's done for redemptive purposes. It can be a secular bank, but secular banks are not bringing the gospel with them typically when they are helping people survive financially or thrive, if you will. And yes, there's tremendous growth globally for micro-lending and especially in the Christian environment. And when you're bringing the gospel with something that is redemptive holistically for someone, it makes sense to them.
As we've even been talking, we've been talking about the holistic nature of generosity. The gospel is the same. It impacts all aspects of their life. And so, when you are a part of a micro-lending effort to… Hope International is one of the best examples that's out there. There are many though. And as you're bringing those resources, you're also bringing evangelism and discipleship. It just starts to spread peer to peer to peer, like we talked about earlier as well, not going it alone.
Most of the successful micro-lending Christian environments, it's word of mouth. They start to influence the people that are around them. They even create groups that meet together that are sharing and a part of the lending process so that they can even keep each other accountable to pay back those loans and to expand their businesses. So it's an extraordinary platform.
Josh Kwan:
May I ask a question, Bill?
Bill Hendricks:
Absolutely.
Josh Kwan:
Because you're in the nexus of DTS and both on the theology and then you're seeing all these seminarians being trained. I'm curious, from your perspective, seeing some of the division or challenges that the American church is facing, I'm wondering some words that you may have to share for American philanthropists who follow Jesus. What are some strategic ways that you see, where philanthropy can make a difference in the church today?
Bill Hendricks:
Well, I think it could make a tremendous difference in the disadvantaged areas of our country. I'm thinking, obviously inner cities and neighborhoods and communities. But when I say that, I don't want people to think in terms of traditional, just dump money into the situation. Honestly, what I think so much of our inner city's need is economic development, but it needs to be tied with churches and groups of faith in those communities that just as we were talking about in micro-lending, bring the gospel to people and discipleship so that the work that's done is within the context of a community of shared relationships. And the community is bound together by its faith in Christ.
Here in Dallas, we've got several neighborhoods where we've done… We meaning groups of believers and neighborhood groups in those communities, have done fantastic work in education, in housing, in job training, in other resources; Unwed Mothers, that type of thing. The one thing that just never seems to happen that would make it sustainable over time are businesses that employ the people that live in those communities, but also keep the money in the communities.
And I'm thinking we have all these entrepreneurs, and particularly in a place like Dallas, and for now years, decades even, I've wondered how is it that we can't find any entrepreneurs that will… And I realize it's a tremendous risk. It's an investment risk to plop a business down and a part of the city that has all kinds of problems, but that has the vision that we could make a difference here for these people. And these are often simple businesses that people that don't have more than a high school education, if that, can still do so. They could be catering or they could be janitorial, or they could be some kind of light manufacturing or things like that.
But I think that Christians, who are doing philanthropy would serve our communities quite well to kind of think about how could we drive community development and economic development into the parts of our communities that traditionally the bucks haven't been there for people to want to invest in those communities. And yet the gifts are there, the people are there, there are resources there, but you just have to think a little differently about what your intent is in that.
Josh Kwan:
I mean, you're describing a very complex challenge that requires a multi-faceted approach to solving.
Bill Hendricks:
Exactly.
Josh Kwan:
And this is where earlier in our conversation we talked about philanthropic capital, investment capital, whether you're creating jobs or providing mental health services, education like direct basic needs, a single philanthropist doing it on their own isn't going to be able to solve this greater challenge in a place like Dallas. You're going to have to find-
Bill Hendricks:
A collection.
Josh Kwan:
Co-conspirators, including people who are outside of your… If my core area of interest is education, I still need to work with people who are working in jails or working with job creation or just to be able to address something as complicated and challenging as addressing disadvantaged urban areas like Dallas. Yeah.
Bill Hendricks:
Well, you're both very familiar with the term asset-based development, which means that when you look at communities, don't look at what they don't have, start with what they do have. And communities to affluent people like me, look very depressed, and oh, there's no potential there. I'm not looking at the right things. I don't see what the people that live in those communities see by way of actual assets of institutions and resources of community centers and leaders and small mom and pop businesses and other little islands of health and strength, even within a very depressed community, and to start on those islands of health and strength to build, to partner, and to find out how do they see things.
And you always discover that God precedes you. He's already been at work there in some way, shape or form. And if you can find out where is God at work and then begin to get behind that, I think that goes a long way further than coming in to say, "Okay, we have all the answers." We have a few minutes left. And David, you and I, pardon me, but I perceive that at least I, if not you, we are aging boomers. And that means that people in our generation won't be around all that much longer, which begins to point to the fact that we have a transfer of generational wealth that's not only taking place, but will continue to accelerate over the next couple of decades. Which brings up the issue of how do we prepare the next generations for taking on this stewardship challenge?
David Wills:
Yeah, it's a super important question. Getting more important every week. We see more and more wealth transfers happening, and so we talked a little bit about collaborative and collective impact environments on the charitable side. I really hope that people think of their families as the first point of collective impact and collaboration, so that traditional aloneness that happens with regards to stewarding, even all five of those things that Ken Boa talked about, that were very intentional within our families to be doing these things together. Because all blessed with those things. And we can be much more intentional about doing those things together.
When we think about doing things in community, encouraging people to first think maybe even in concentric circles, they're married, think about their spouse. Are they stewarding things together? Their time, their talent, their treasure, the truth, relationships. And then a concentric circle is their closest… Their children and grandchildren if they have them. And consider that to be a collective impact effort, or a collaboration as opposed to something out there being collaborative, which it is, and can be, which is great. Let's start right here and think in terms of our family functioning like that.
When people ask you about your family, you want your family members to say, "Wow, we really are a family. We do things together. Let me tell you about what we did together." And certainly being a good steward together is the first step in the reality of the wealth that's transferring.
Bill Hendricks:
Josh, I know The Gathering has a lot of families in your network. What are you seeing as far as the transfer and the passing of that spirit of philanthropy?
Josh Kwan:
It is really hard. It is really hard to do well. And one of the core principles of why The Gathering exists is because families want to meet other families on that same journey. Sometimes they're just ahead in terms of some decisions have been made or maybe the age of the kids or second or third generation. And there's families behind that you can offer advice to. And I think what's been beautiful is to see families learn from one another. So as David said, it's such a danger to do this in isolation, to think that you're the only one making these kinds of big life-changing generation changing decisions.
And so to see how other people, if you're the first generation wealth creator, how do you pass on wealth wisely, humbly? How do you pass on authority? How do you step away from decision-making and control if that's what you want to do? And that's what you're called to do. That is just so hard to do. There's nothing like your identity being tied up in the wealth that you've accumulated, in the position that you have as a patriarch or matriarch of the family because you have these abilities to make things happen in philanthropy or vacationing or providing grandkids with gifts.
And we know families, sometimes we think generationally. So the kinds of causes that activate the heart of one generation of donors is not the same as what activates the hearts of second or third generation of givers. And it requires an enormous amount of love and grace among all the different generations to acknowledge and honor what's gone ahead, and then to give room and to give space for the next generation to take leadership and to say, "They may be hearing God differently than the way I heard God." And those kinds of conversations are happening right now, and the trends show that there's going to be lots more happening and very significant amounts of dollars involved. So as much as there's a path towards hope, there's also lots of areas for pitfalls, and you know that money can amplify division or conflict in a family, and tear it apart? That's the tragedy of not doing it well.
Bill Hendricks:
Well, our time is-
David Wills:
Yes, it's-
Bill Hendricks:
Go ahead, David.
David Wills:
Oh, sorry.
Go ahead.
Bill Hendricks:
Well, I just was going to mention, scripture is really clear on this. It says, "Be on your guard," with regards to things of wealth. Why would it say be on your guard? And it's of the few specific things for scripture says. Be on your guard. And one of the reasons is it's really hard to see it in the mirror, so you've got to get people around you, as Josh mentioned, peers that have gone before you. Maybe they can even help you hold you accountable. It's just wealth is like fire. If it's in the fireplace and it's keeping you warm and it's roasting marshmallows, that's fantastic. But put it in your lap and it will burn you. It will kill you.
And scripture is replete with warnings; temptations, traps, harmful desires, just on and on. It describes seeking wealth to stabbing yourself with many pains. We do not want people that are coming behind us having that experience. And so, you can't go it alone. It's never too early to start as a family getting help from someone else. It could be an advisor, it could be a peer that's walked this journey and that can come alongside you and encourage you on making sure that wise decisions are happening with regards to wealth.
Josh and I have both been in situations where we've heard very, very sad stories, but also very, very joyful stories as well. You can excel at the grace of giving, even giving wealth to those that are coming behind you.
Josh Kwan:
Yeah, amen to that, David.
Bill Hendricks:
Well, guys, I wish we had more time, but I'm afraid the clock has run down. I want to thank you both for being on The Table Podcast today and sharing this unbelievable wisdom when it comes to stewardship and philanthropy. Thank you very much.
Josh Kwan:
Pleasure is ours.
David Wills:
It's been an honor. Thank you.
Bill Hendricks:
Jesus said, "To whom much is given shall much be required." And of course, when it comes to wealth, oftentimes somebody thinks, "Well, I wasn't given that. I went out and earned it." But of course, all that we have, we've been given. Ultimately all that we are is His grace. The gifts that He's given us, the opportunities that He's given us, the employment that He's given us, the people that He's put in our path. All of those are gifts from a gracious God who is very generous and loves to give, to bless people. And if you have resources and you've got many resources, the challenge of stewardship looms large for you. I think what I've heard from these two gentlemen today is that we need to be in community with others to talk about how do we steward our resources well in ways that bless those around us, bless the world, cause the world and its people to flourish, and in the process bringing glory to God and carrying out his purposes for being here?
I want to thank you for being with us on The Table Podcast today. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe on your favorite podcasting site, and tell others about the program. We'd love to invite them in to join these conversations. I'm Bill Hendricks for The Table Podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology for everyday life. Thank you for being with us.
