Surf Mastery

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Welcome to Surf Mastery Podcast, where we explore the fascinating intersections of life, sports, and the pursuit of challenges. In this episode, our host Michael John Frampton sits down with Guy Kawasaki to discuss the joys and trials of picking up surfing at 60, his unique philosophy on parenting and life, and the profound lessons learned along the way. 

Guy Kawasaki is a speaker, avid surfer, and respected author. His notable works include The Art of the Start, Enchantment: The Art of Changing Hearts, Minds, and Actions, and Wise Guy: Lessons from a Life. 

He is well-known for his influential role as Apple's Chief Evangelist in the 1980s and his significant contributions to Canva. Beyond his professional achievements, his passion for surfing, which he took up in his 60s is a profound metaphor for life's lessons.

Episode Highlights:

• Surfing at Sixty: Guy shares his inspiring journey of starting to surf at the age of 60, motivated by his children's passions. Unlike many parents who impose their hobbies on their children, Guy believes in embracing what his children love, leading him to take up surfing and hockey later in life.

• Parenting Philosophy: Guy discusses his approach to parenting, emphasizing the importance of supporting and engaging in his children's interests rather than directing them.

• Life Lessons from Surfing: Surfing has not just been a sport for Guy but a source of life lessons. He talks about the complexities and unpredictability of surfing, drawing parallels between managing waves and life's challenges.

• Humorous Anecdotes: From confusing directions underwater to humorous interactions in the surf community, Guy brings a light-hearted perspective to the challenges of learning to surf.

• Persistence and Adaptability: Guy reflects on the broader implications of persistence in surfing, comparing it to career and personal life, where adaptability and resilience are crucial.

• Insights on Book Writing: Discussing his concise approach to writing, Guy emphasizes the importance of distilling vast amounts of information into accessible insights, mirroring his practical approach to life.

Key Quotes:

• "Rather than me forcing them to take up what I love, I let them determine what I should take up based on what they love."

• "The first time I actually caught a wave and stood up, it was magic. Where else can you get this feeling?"

• "You can sit out there in the water looking for that perfect wave all day and never turn and paddle. The same thing applies to life."

Follow Guy Kawasaki:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guykawasaki/

• Website: https://guykawasaki.com/

Full Show Transcript:

Michael Frampton: Welcome back to the Surf Mastery podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and today's guest is Guy Kawasaki. You may have heard that name. He's very famous in Silicon Valley, especially for his early role and involvement with Apple. He's gone on to do a lot of projects since then. Too many to mention in this short intro, but one of his most recent projects is a very successful 200-plus episode podcast called 'Remarkable People', and he recently released a new book called 'Think Remarkable'. Based on those interviews, and the main reason that I wanted to get him on the show is because he started surfing at 60. Yes, six zero. Started surfing at 60. So yes, Guy has a very unique perspective on beginning surfing, and I was very excited when he accepted the invite to come on the show, and he did not disappoint. So without further ado, I will fade in my conversation with Guy Kawasaki. Hello, Guy, how are you?

Guy Kawasaki: I'm good. I can hear you now. Yes.

Michael Frampton: Excellent. And I've got you. Right. And it's recording. It looks like all the technical stuff is out of the way.

Guy Kawasaki: Don't get overconfident. The day is young.

Michael Frampton: It sure is. Well, and your lust for surfing. That's also quite young. Starting at 60. My gosh, that is. That's very late in life to start surfing. What inspired you to start?

Guy Kawasaki: What inspired me was that my daughter in particular became an avid and competitive surfer. And I kind of have a different parenting perspective and philosophy. I think many parents, what they do is they inadvertently or advertently force their kids to take up what they're interested in. So if you're a golfer, your kid's golf, you're a surfer, your kid's surf. If you are a, I don't know, physicist, your kids take up physics or violin or whatever. Yeah, in my family it worked differently. So rather than forcing the kids to take up what I loved, they would force me to take up what I said that wrong rather than I take up what I could speak English. English is my first language rather than me forcing them to take up what I love. I let they determine what I should take up based on what they love. And so they loved surfing and they loved hockey. So I took up hockey at 44, and I took up surfing at 60 because that's what my kids are into.

Michael Frampton: Oh, I love that, you're a good dad and that's an awesome philosophy and I actually have the same philosophy my kids got into football when they were quite young, and I just started playing with them, even though I never grew up playing it. I never liked the game, but now I actually love the game and have a strong appreciation for it.

Guy Kawasaki: So when you say football, you mean American oblong football or European-like round waffle? Oh okay. Okay. Soccer.

Michael Frampton: Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki: Because if you took up American football at a late age, it's hard to get 20, 21 other guys out there with helmets killing each other so.

Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. It's a rough sport. I mean, I grew up playing rugby, so I'm no stranger to that sort of world. But, it's not something you do when you're a or certainly not something you take up when you're older. It's a brutal sport.

Guy Kawasaki: So I think.

Michael Frampton: That thing can be pretty brutal, too. I mean, I'm sure you've had some gnarly wipeouts in your learning curve.

Guy Kawasaki: Well, listen, my sweet spot is maybe 3 to 4 at the most. Okay? Like, I am perfectly happy at 1 to 2ft. My daughter surfs at Mavericks and stuff, but that's not me, but I will tell you that, there have been times where in, like, a one-foot wave, I fall down and I lose perspective and reference and I'm like paddling, trying to get back up to the surface and I hit my head on the bottom because I was going the wrong way. I've done some very kooky things, I assure you.

Michael Frampton: So I'm interested to know, like, you're a smart guy. I'm sure when you decided to start surfing, what was your first entry point like? Did you get a lesson with someone? Did you just buy a board and jump in? How did you go about it?

Guy Kawasaki: Listen, when you start surfing at 60, well, one would hope that in 60 years you've acquired some kind of street smartness. So you figure out that, you're just not going to go to Costco and buy $150 board and then go out to Mavericks and decide to surf and, you know, with your goggles and your GoPro and your helmet and your zinc on your face. So the first thing I did was I took lessons. I took lessons in Hawaii, I took lessons in India, I took lessons in Santa Cruz. I took lessons at Cowell's and at Jacks. I kind of figured out that, when you start that late, you've got to accelerate the pace. And the way to accelerate the pace is to get instruction. Not by hanging out with Groms all day, trying to surf during the summer.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. So you sort many different opinions on instructions as well. That's a great strategy. Was there one particular lesson that stood out to you?

Guy Kawasaki: Every lesson was difficult. I started paddle surfing. I don't know why I started paddle surfing, but anyway, so I started with paddle boards and then a surf instructor here in Santa Cruz was just who was coaching my daughter at the time. He definitely established the, should I say, pecking order in surfing, and let's just say that paddle boarding is beneath prone surfing. And so it was a constant humiliation. So at one point I just got tired of being humiliated. And I said, all right, so throw away the paddle, give me a narrow board, and off I go. He for months, was pushing me into waves, because I don't know, to this day, I think the hardest thing in surfing is knowing where to sit and when to turn. It's just like I barely understand it, and when I'm out there and I'm with experienced surfers and they turn and they catch a wave that I don't even see the wave. I'm like, what are they turning for? And then not only that, they turn and they catch a wave that I barely can see. And they only paddle twice and I'm paddling like freaking 50, 60 times trying to get up there, it's a different world.

Michael Frampton: Oh, it sure is. And you nailed it. I mean, no matter what level of surfer you are, getting into the wave or choosing the right wave and getting into it in the right spot, that's always the hardest part. Because once you're standing up, once you're standing up on the right part of the wave, surfing is really simple and quite easy.

Guy Kawasaki: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's a mystery to me. With surfing, there are so many variables, right? I mean, there's the wave. Well, even the wave, there's the height, there's the direction, there's the speed, Are you at the peak, are you on the shoulder. That's just the wave. And then you're going to think of the wind and you got to think of the other kooks in the water and then you got to worry about, we have a ten-inch fin and it's, it's negative one tide and all the kelp is sticking out. So that's not going to work. Well I mean there's so many variables. It's such a cerebral sport.

Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. Now has and if so how has surfing made your life better?

Guy Kawasaki: Oh absolutely. I mean, I surf every day. In fact, today I might surf twice. And here's like a Guy Kawasaki typical kind of story. So I have Méniere's disease. Méniere's disease has three symptoms, which is, sporadic attacks of vertigo, tinnitus, which is the ringing in your ear and hearing loss and so basically, my ears are all messed up, and it's not surfer ears or anything like that because I have only been surfing ten years, so it's not from surfing. This is a pre-existing condition. So if you said to somebody if you have middle ear issues and vertigo and deafness and tinnitus and all that kind of stuff, why don't you take up ice hockey and surfing? That's the perfect sports for you. The two sports that require balance the most I took up with the bad ears, huh?

Michael Frampton: Wow. So you like when someone tells you you can't do something that you see as a challenge?

Guy Kawasaki: I didn't listen. I mean, people have told me that I cannot do a lot of things, and quite frankly, they were right. So it's not a matter of proving them wrong. I will just say that, like the first time I played ice hockey, and the first time I actually caught a wave and stood up, it was magic. It was like Holy shit, this is like, where else can you get this feeling? It's like magical to be standing on a wave and somehow, like, you don't have to do anything like nature is pushing you forward. In my case 12 to 15 miles an hour. I mean and you don't need a hill to do that, like skateboarding when you fall on the pavement, it's a lot different than falling in the water. So, surfing is just magic. It's the most fun I think you can have legally.

Michael Frampton: I agree, and so do all of our listeners. But it's also one of the it's also one of the most challenging things that you can. I mean have you is that's a good question. Is surfing the most challenging thing you've that you do?

Guy Kawasaki: It is by far the most challenging thing I have ever tried to learn to do by far because there are so many variables. There's so many external variables and then there's your internal, there's like your body weight and your body type and your hip flexibility and, it's a very complex cerebral sport and I don't think people who don't surf, they don't appreciate how difficult it is because like basketball, you run and you jump in the normal course of life, right? I mean, ice hockey is like that, too. You don't skate naturally. I mean, that's something you have to learn the fundamentals. You have to learn. So I think part of the attraction for me, for surfing is that it is so hard. If I became immediately good at it, the thrill would be gone but it's taken ten years. I like my dream. Everybody has to have a dream. Right. So my dream is to be able to take four steps and hang ten on the nose. Okay? In ten years, I'm now able to sometimes take two steps. So it's taking me five years per step. So I need another ten years to get the total of four steps. I hope I make it.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Well, Jerry Lopez says that the first 20 years of surfing is just to test if you're really interested.

Guy Kawasaki: I interviewed Jerry Lopez for my podcast, I know. I listened.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Great. You did a great job.

Guy Kawasaki: Yeah, it's a funny story. You'll appreciate this surfing story. So this weekend we went to a surf meet in Huntington Beach. And on the sidewalk at Huntington Beach, there's, like, the Hollywood Walk of Fame. It's only the surfing Walk of Fame. And there's these, I think, brass plaques for these famous surfers. Right. So I saw Sean Tompson's, I saw Layne Beachley, and I saw Jerry Lopez, and I happen to know all three people because of my podcast. I sent them all messages and they all responded, yeah. Sean Tompson's response was, oh, they spelled my name right.

Michael Frampton: Oh, cool. I interviewed Sean a while ago for the podcast and actually see quite a couple of similarities between the book he wrote in the book you wrote is in. You chose not to make it a three-page behemoth full of fluff. And it's such a good book. It's so succinct. And it's the kind of book I'd rather spend 12 hours reading a good book three times, then 12 hours reading a long book once.

Guy Kawasaki: Yeah, I hear you and one of the things I think about many nonfiction books is they take 200 to 300 pages to explain one idea. Right? So like you should you should make a prototype very quick with the minimum features and get it out there and then if it doesn't succeed, bring it back and change it fast. Well, I just explained a 300-page book about minimum viable product and pivoting. Right? I mean, what else do you need to know about that concept besides what I just explained in 10s?

Michael Frampton: No, I really enjoyed your book. It's definitely one I'm going to go back and reread because it's so succinct.

Guy Kawasaki: I want you to know that I am a much better writer than a surfer, just FYI.

Michael Frampton: Has surfing taught you anything about other aspects of your life?

Guy Kawasaki: Ah, listen, I could. I can interpret almost all of life with using a surfing metaphor. Right? So, one obvious one is you can sit out there in the water looking for that perfect wave all day and never turn and paddle and if you do that, I guarantee you will not catch any waves. Same thing applies to life, right? You can be waiting for that perfect company, that perfect product, that perfect service, that perfect co-founder, that perfect VC and you could, you know, try to make this perfect thing and then that means you will never do anything. Same thing as surfing. Another analogy I would say is that, yes, you try to pick the perfect wave and you turn it the perfect time at the perfect angle and all the perfect stuff. But I think one of the things I learned about surfing is that at some point you turn and burn and then you just need to make that decision, right? Even if it's wrong. Right? You just gotta compensate. You would like to be in the barrel on the face of the wave, but guess what? You're an idiot. You're in the white water, so make the best of it right. And that's another metaphor for life, is that, you got to make decisions, right?

Michael Frampton: Yeah, you just kind of describe that in the book by saying, just plant many, many seeds because you're not you don't know which one will eventually eventuate and you catch lots of waves. that's the thing a lot. I've said before on this podcast is that when you watch, a surfing movie, you've got to realize that might only be ten minutes worth of surfing that you're watching but it took a surfer a year worth five hours a day of surfing to get those ten minutes worth of surfing.

Guy Kawasaki: Yea. You can apply that to almost everything in YouTube, right? So on the YouTube when they show this is a guy hitting half court shots, they shot him for five hours to get him making a half court shot twice. Right. He just goes out and does everyone like that? Yeah.

Michael Frampton: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: And surfing is a lot about sort of being in the right place at the right time and when you look at your career, I wonder how much of that's true. in your career?

Guy Kawasaki: Oh, my career is more about being in the right place at the right time than it is about being in the right place because of my decision. Okay? I guarantee you that, I call this guys Golden touch, which is not whatever I touch turns to gold guys. Golden touch is whatever is gold guy touches.

Michael Frampton: I like that.

Guy Kawasaki: So, this is the equivalent of that in a surfing metaphor is sometimes and it's happened to me. Sometimes you just expect to get clobbered, right? And so you turn your back to the wave and you lean back because you're about to get clobbered. And somehow the wave catches you and you get a ride without even trying to get the ride. Yeah, I'm telling you, a lot of people join companies that they had no freaking idea what it was going to do, and they turned out to be millionaires. Like, I don't know, what's this company Google do? I don't know, they needed a facilities manager and I didn't have a job, so I went to work for Google. I was the first Google facilities manager and now come to find out, my stock is worth $50 million. Yeah. I'm so smart now. There have been waves I guarantee you, Michael. There have been waves that I caught that I didn't intend to catch.

Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Michael Frampton: That happens all the time. And then you sort of, you turn up to the beach and without even knowing it's going to be good and it happens to be good. There's, there's luck involved in everything.

Guy Kawasaki: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: How do you define luck?

Guy Kawasaki: I think luck is, getting back to seeds. Luck is planting a lot of seeds, right? I mean, you don't get lucky by staying on the sand. You get lucky by being in the water. You got to plant a lot of seeds and then, even if you're lucky, you have to take advantage of that luck. So you can't be a dumbass. You can't be a lazy schmuck and luck comes upon you and everything just is automatic. Even being lucky, you need to work hard. You need to be prepared. You need to be ready. If your board is not waxed and you're not sitting in the water. Yeah, you could be the most lucky guy in the world. You're still not going to catch the wave

Michael Frampton: Yeah. And you have to be sort of looking for those opportunities as well, don't you?

Michael Frampton: Yeah, I remember reading a book about luck and they did a test where they left a $20 bill sort of in the corner next to a sidewalk. And 95% of people just walk straight past. But then the person that noticed it considered themselves lucky, but really they were sort of open to or just being observant and looking for those opportunities.

Guy Kawasaki: So you're saying those people saw it and didn't pick it up or they didn't see it at all?

Michael Frampton: They didn't notice it? Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki: Wow.

Michael Frampton: That wasn't directly in the middle of the sidewalk. Obviously, everyone would see it. But, the corner of it's just sticking out and if you consider yourself a lucky person, then your peripheral vision is actually more likely to pick up on little things like that.

Guy Kawasaki: I hate to tell you, but this is, it's a related story, not necessarily the same story, but I'll tell you something to this day. If I were walking down the street and I saw a penny on the ground, I would pick up the penny, I really would. I think that a penny doesn't make a lot of difference to anybody, but. Okay. But it's just the principle that you should never leave money.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. No, I like that. That's a good metaphor, too. Like, if you're surfing in a crowd and a wave comes your way and it's. You probably should just take it rather than wait for the next one.

Guy Kawasaki: Well, I have to say that, being deaf, I have a cochlear implant that's like, we can do this interview, but you can't wear a cochlear implant in the water. So being deaf in the water, there are some advantages to that. So like number one, Jerry Lopez says you should never be talking in the lineup. You should always be focused on surfing. Well, I hardly talk in the lineup because I cannot hear. So there's no sense talking, so that helps. And then let's just say that like every other kook in Santa Cruz, I drop in on people, okay? And then when they yell at me, I cannot hear. It doesn't bother me at all. They can yell all they want. I don't even hear.

Michael Frampton: Interesting. I wonder, do you think that there could be an advantage? Because then, you know it is an advantage.

Guy Kawasaki: Yeah. Because like, if I heard the person yelling at me and telling me to go f myself, then it would get in my head and I'd be pissed off and there'd be an argument. And who knows where that would lead? But now I just like, I'm deaf. I literally people have been like, jabbering at me and I said I'm deaf. I don't know what you're saying. I just paddle away. So if anybody's listening to this from Santa Cruz and you yell at me and I ignore you, that's what's happening.

Michael Frampton: Do you sometimes purposely take it out, when you're doing other things to increase your focus?

Guy Kawasaki: Oh, my implant?

Michael Frampton: Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki: No, i am blessed with a form of OCD that when I get focused on something, whether it's writing or editing or, anything like that. I can be anywhere. I can be in the middle seat of Southwest Airlines in row 35, and I can concentrate. It's not a matter of what I hear, so I never have to do that. Ijust lose touch with reality. It's the same thing when I speak, I have gone on stage with a migraine headache. I've gone on stage feeling sick but it just takes over me. And I'm just, like, in a zone. Deshaun Thompson zone.

Michael Frampton: Have you always been like that or is that something that you've had to work on and foster?

Guy Kawasaki: I can't remember. I think it just comes with repetition. I don't think I was born like that. I don't think anybody is born like that, but I certainly have it now.

Michael Frampton: Is there a bigger picture behind that though? Like, is there a driving force that sort of allows you, to keep trudging forward?

Guy Kawasaki: Well, for a while, I have four kids, so for the longest time my motivation was four tuitions. Now, as of next week, only one tuition will be in play, so that has reduced the pressure. But I guess I am just driven. I have a high need for achievement. Like this podcast, I do 52 episodes a year with no revenue,

Guy Kawasaki: On paper you'd have to say, Guy, why do you do that? Why do you kill yourself doing a podcast? And I'm just driven. It's just driven by achievement. And in a sense, the same thing applies for surfing. For me, I do a lot of dry land training and stuff because I'm 60. I got to catch up, right? So I can't just get out there and automatically assume everything's going to work. So, the secret to my success in life, surfing, or to the extent that I am successful in surfing, the secret to my life is grit. I am willing to outwork anybody.

Michael Frampton: There's also if you're doing dry land training, then there's a lot of podcasts as well. There's a lot of preparation that goes into that.

Guy Kawasaki: Yep. Nobody can out-prep me.

Michael Frampton: Oh, okay.

Michael Frampton: I'm interested to know what does your dryland training for surfing look like?

Guy Kawasaki: Oh, okay. I could do even more, but, I practiced pop-ups. I'm trying to constantly increase flexibility. I do more than anybody I know, but I know I could do so much more. It's just that in the last year or so, this book has just taken over my life, too. But, I'm telling you, I am going to hang ten. I'm going to hang ten and then I'm going to drop dead right after that and everything will be fine.

Michael Frampton: Oh, funny.

Guy Kawasaki: They're just going to get, I've seen them take dead bodies off the beach at Jax and the fire department comes and they put you in a little one of those. Is it a sleigh? What do they call it? One of those baskets. They bring the dead body up from the cliff in a basket, that's all. They're going to take me out of Jax, okay?

Michael Frampton: You're die-happy then?

Michael Frampton: Death on the nose. Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki: He was so shocked. He hung ten. He had a stroke and died.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, well.

Michael Frampton: You get the right wave, get the right board. You'll get there for sure. It's a good goal.

Guy Kawasaki: I have to tell you, though, it's much more likely that I, apparently hit my head on the ground and drowned then I hang ten on my last ride.

Michael Frampton: Oh, I've got a feeling that you'll get there.

Guy Kawasaki: Well, yeah, I hope so.

Michael Frampton: So out of all you've done so many podcast episodes, like over 200, is there any is there any commonalities between all of these guests?

Michael Frampton: Oh yeah.

Guy Kawasaki: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in a sense, the commonality with 250 episodes reduced to. Yeah, that's 5000 pages of transcripts, so that 5000 pages of transcripts has come down to 170 pages in a book. There's a lot of commonality and the lessons of the book reflect the commonality and at the highest level, the commonality is that to be remarkable, you need to have a growth mindset. You need to be willing to pay the price and be greedy and finally, you need to be gracious to be remarkable and that just happens over and over again with those 250 guests.

Michael Frampton: How do you how do you define grit?

Guy Kawasaki: Grit is the ability to do something when you are not necessarily getting positive results and nor do you necessarily enjoy it, but you just are willing to pay the price.

Michael Frampton: So, is there an element of faith or hope that goes with that? or delusion?

Michael Frampton: In my case, it's a delusion with surfing.

Guy Kawasaki: But you know what? One thing I figured out is it doesn't matter why you're gritty. It's just that you're gritty. You could be stubborn. You could be OCD, you could be delusional. You could be whatever. But as long as you just keep putting it out, that's all that matters.

Michael Frampton: Okay, and then grace, how do you define grace?

Guy Kawasaki: Grace is when you come to this realization that you are successful in life, and you are fortunate because there are teachers and coaches and mentors and bosses. There are people who opened the door for you and because somebody opened the door for you, you should open the door for somebody else. So it's a sense of moral obligation to the world to pay back society.

Michael Frampton: Okay, how would you define grace in the surfing world?

Guy Kawasaki: I could. Okay, I yeah. I could tell you some really great stories here. So at 38, there are some surfers who are really quite good. I would love to be as good as them. And they are so good that they can catch a wave and they can surf the whole face. They can catch it in front of Jack's house, and they could go all the way to like Purves or to like practically the hook, right? They can take the face the whole way, and some of them do and you know what? When you're at Jack's and there's a lot of beginners and novices, there are lots of people who are going to catch the wave and get in your way on the face and that's just the way it is at Jax. Jax is for kooks and beginners, right and so these really good surfers, they can take the whole face and they get really pissed off with people and they yell at people and they scream and they push people off and all that, and I just don't understand that and believe me, I've been one of those people who've been pushed and yelled at and what I don't understand is like, okay, if you are so freaking good, go to first or second or go to the hook, but you're just trying to be a big dog in this little shit pond.

Guy Kawasaki: So like, what is your problem? and like, everybody's out there, they're just trying to have a good time, learn how to surf, catch a few waves. So like what? Why are you being such an asshole? Then it's like, Guess what? There's nobody from the WSL sitting up on the East cliff looking for people for the WSL. So I hate to tell you, I can drop in on your face and I'm not going to affect your professional surfing career, so just shut up and go to second or first. That's my attitude. They completely lack grace and I have a theory that the better you are, the more gracious you are. It's the middle ground, right? So when you're really a beginner and lousy, you don't know what the hell you're doing. When you get kind of good, that's when you figure, I'm the big dog. I can get the face, I can hang ten, I can do cutbacks and all that. But then when you get really, really good, you say, I want to help other people enjoy surfing. And I'm going to help them and coach them and encourage them. You don't yell at them. The really good surfers don't yell at you.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, I love that definition and I totally agree. Yep. Joel Tudor is famous for saying that the ultimate goal is Skip Frye.

Guy Kawasaki: Skip Frye was like that?

Michael Frampton: He still is.

Michael Frampton: He's still out there surfing every day. He's in his 80s and he just glides gracefully along on his.

Guy Kawasaki: But does he yell at somebody if a kook dropped in on him? No.

Michael Frampton: No, of course not.

Michael Frampton: He's been surfing so long that you just wouldn't. I think sometimes surfers also, I think a graceful surfer has the sort of demeanor about them that just you would feel bad dropping in on them because they're so graceful and they're not taking every wave. Does that sort of make? Yeah.

Michael Frampton: But if you're out there trying to take every wave and yelling at people, you're actually more likely to get dropped in on again and again and again. So thank you. Thank you CCTV.

Guy Kawasaki: Oh, God.

Michael Frampton: I think part of this is a lot of those people, they surfed, 20, 30 years ago when there just was one-tenth of the amount of people in the water, and they kind of expect it to be like that still, even though you're right, you're right. They can go for it. They can drive half an hour and go somewhere else where it's more difficult and where there are less people.

Guy Kawasaki: Half an hour, they could paddle 500 yards to the right and they could be someplace else like that, but I think a lot of those people, they realize that, at Jax, they stand out, but if they went to first or second, they would be at the bottom of the pile again. Right? And they would be yelled at not doing the yelling and they cannot adjust to that.

Michael Frampton: So yeah, that doesn't feed their ego.

Guy Kawasaki: Yeah. The second peak is my Mavericks.

Michael Frampton: That's. yup, Okay.

Michael Frampton: So that's Grace, and well, I quite like how you've defined compassion as a combination of empathy and grit. I really liked that definition. Can you speak a bit more on that?

Guy Kawasaki: Well, the empathy part is easy, right? I mean, when you think of compassionate people, they can empathize. They can feel what you're feeling. They can understand, they can relate right, but the difference between empathy and compassion, I think, is that you want to go from empathy to compassion, which is the higher level. It means that you not only feel for the other person, you're actually do something. So a compassionate person does something and an empathetic person just feels something and that's the difference.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. That's. So it comes back to doing again.

Guy Kawasaki: Yep.

Michael Frampton: Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki: That's a recurrent theme in my books.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. And I also really liked your Ikigai. You sort of, I like how you reframed that.

Michael Frampton: Sort of do what you love, right?

Michael Frampton: And then be willing to improve to go push through the shit sandwich to improve, but also to not expect to get paid for it.

Guy Kawasaki: Well, see, I think that, now listen. I am Japanese American, but I don't want to give you the impression that I spent 20 years studying with Buddhist monks, and I truly understand Japanese and all that because I'm just as American as Donald Trump Jr. But I'll tell you something that lots of people define Ikigai as you draw three circles, which is what you love to do, what you're good at doing, and what you can get paid at, and in the middle of those three is what your ikigai should be, because you can get paid, you like it, and you're good at it. I disagree with that definition. My definition is that Ikigai means that you are not good at it. You cannot get paid at it, and you may hate it because you're not good and not getting paid at it, but you still do it, and that for me is surfing, right? I'm not good at it. I love doing it. Sometimes I hate it and I'm never going to get paid for it. So if you're under those conditions, if you still surf every day, you could probably bet that it's your Ikigai or something you truly, truly love, because it's not because it's the money. It's not because it's easy. It's only because you love it.

Michael Frampton: Yeah I really like that it's a good twist on, because I was very aware of Ikigai. I think everyone is nowadays. It's become quite part of pop culture, but it was a really good reframing. I really liked that. Allan Langer.

Guy Kawasaki: The psychologist.

Michael Frampton: Yes. How did she change your perspective on things?

Guy Kawasaki: Okay, so Ellen Langer. She made a brilliant observation to me that we spend so much time trying to make the right decision, but what we should do is make our decisions right, and going back to that surfing analogy. So, yeah, spend your whole life or the whole session in the water trying to make the right decision, but what you should really do is turn and burn and make that decision right, which means that you can compensate by turning the board or paddling harder or softer or, popping up, fading and then going right, or who knows, right? But Ellen Langer is all about, yes, take your best shot but then make your decision, right, and I think that is a very good prescription for how to lead a remarkable life. You've got to make your decisions right.

Michael Frampton: Do you mean by that, as in, once you've made a decision to accept it and sort of trust that, it is right?

Guy Kawasaki: Well, I don't know about trust, but, I think the reality is that you never can make the exact perfect decision because the future is unknowable and there's so many variables. So I'm not saying that if you got married to somebody and that person is physically abusive? I'm not saying stick in the marriage and make the decision right? Okay. There are some things. There are limits to these things right, but to think that the grass is always greener and to think that, perfection lies in the next wave, not this one. I think that's suboptimal. At some point, you just got to make it right.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, so it's kind of about being present really.

Guy Kawasaki: Yes. Yes.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, interesting. Is meditation part of your life?

Guy Kawasaki: No, no. Like, Marc Benioff in his interview talked about meditation and all that. I don't have time for meditation, right? I'm a doer. I'm not a meditator. What can I say? Hmm. Maybe I should meditate more. Maybe I could hang ten.

Michael Frampton: I would argue that you said yourself, earlier that even in the middle seat, in cattle class on an airplane, you have the ability to focus on something.

Michael Frampton: Yes, Most people meditate in order to get more of that, I think.

Guy Kawasaki: Well, then I was born with it.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. You're lucky. I see the statue in the background and is Buddhism part of your life?

Guy Kawasaki: No, it's just I am in a closet that I've made into a sound studio, and I wanted to have an interesting background. So, I have tried dozens of things I like. I have this lamp, I have this fake flower. I have fake flowers. I have the lamp, I have bamboo, I have vases, I've tried all kinds of stuff. Yeah, I'm constantly experimenting to get, like, you have that surfboard back there, but I don't have space for a surfboard.

Michael Frampton: So you're a little bit of an interior designer.

Guy Kawasaki: You know what? I don't want to tell you how many hours I have spent trying to make a good background, putting all this soundproof foam, getting this stuff here, like, it would probably be measured in days, in days.

Michael Frampton: Oh, no. It's a good thing. I think it looks good and, your voice is coming across with no echo. So, well done.

Guy Kawasaki: Well, I once spent a few weeks trying to make sure that the video and audio were perfectly synced because I was getting a case where the audio was about two frames behind the video, and the way you test that is you do something like you clap and you see when your hands hit, and then you look and you see if there's a spike of the clap matching that exact moment right, and it wasn't. It was two frames off, and that just freaking drove me crazy, and then finally I found something that you can add frames of delay for the video or, I don't know, vice versa, whatever it was. Yeah, I'm a little nuts that way.

Michael Frampton: Oh, you got to get that sort of stuff right though I think it does matter. Is that sort of a bit of a perfectionism that you speak about there?

Guy Kawasaki: A bit. I'd say there's a freaking wheelbarrow full.

Michael Frampton: If there was one message that you hoped someone got out of your most recent book. What is that?

Guy Kawasaki: I hope people realize that it's not about deciding you want to be remarkable. The way it works is you make a difference. You make the world a better place. And if you make the world a better place, then people will believe you are remarkable. So it's not a which came first. It's just an order. You make the world a better place. People will think you're remarkable. So the focus not on being remarkable as much as making a difference.

Michael Frampton: I love that. Guy. Thank you so much. Congratulations on.

Guy Kawasaki: I might go surfing a second session.

Michael Frampton: Awesome.

Guy Kawasaki: Thank you.

Michael Frampton: I'll have links to all of, everything of Guy in the show notes. Uh, thanks for tuning in, everyone.

Guy Kawasaki: All right. Thank you very much for having me. All the best to you.

Michael Frampton: All right. Thank you. Guy. Awesome. Really appreciate your time. Thank you. Bye bye.